Technical Radio ban- revisited

[canis]

gethinceri RasputinLives I would love to agree with you, the issue is that the tech in the cars are part of he regulations. To simplify how to drive the cars you need to remove the tech stage by stage.

It is easy to simplify how the drivers control the cars, first remove the ERS, that will remove a few hundred setting combinations.

Then remove the Turbo, there goes another few hundred settings.

Oh, don't forget controlling the fuel flow, and make the engines run on a single mode only.

Then take away the differential settings (something used to make the car safer to drive in certain parts of the track).

Oh, don't forget to remove the potential to rebalance the brakes.

There we go, nice and simple to drive, only have the push button for the DRS and a single switch for the pit lane mode.

This means the engine regs need to be re-worked, also the rules over power in the pit lane, and the whole engine spec needs to be redefined.And best of all we end up with cars that are substantially slower with difficulty trying to overtake (even with the DRS). Oh, and that would mean we could get rid of the intermediate and wet tyres as even the slightest moisture on the track part way through a race would mean the cars had to stop running as they couldn't be adjusted to cope with it.

I know I am taking the argument to the extreme, but to be honest the technology is half the race in F1. Those teams that have the better implementation of the tech have a better chance of winning, this drives tech onwards beyond just having the biggest lump of an engine sucking the most fuel in the shortest period of time.

So we have to have a choice, we keep things simple and keep the ban on support of the technology from the pit lane, or we allow newer and better technology to be employed making the cars faster but allow some form of tech support from the pit. I have no issues with the intent of the current rule, which was to stop the coaching of drivers from the pit lane telling them how to drive, this is a good rule and one I would support without question.

For me being a complete nerd I not only enjoy F1 for the driver skills, but I love the technology side of it as well. I don't want to see the tech removed or simplified and is is part of the team effort. But that is my choice and I will argue for it. But I am also aware that it is not possible to put this much tech in a car with complete control given to the driver (no control of the tech is allowed from the pit lane or automatically) without providing them with some support. We could always allow more advanced tech in the car, in the same way that your more modern road car will adapt the engine settings and suspension etc to how you are currently driving and thus simplify things and keep the tech, but the regs don't allow that at present.

So either way you look at it the regs need to be altered. If it is not the reg over radio communication then it is other regs. This is a wider issue within F1 anyway in that there are regs that do not support each other in a practical sense and there have been for some years.

 

[gethinceri]

I haven't said that simplicity is the solution. Nothing is wrong with the current situation.

 

[RasputinLives]

What's the point in designing a car the driver can't drive on his own? Surely the challenger for a team is to build all that with a simple control system for the driver to operate it and the challenger for the driver is to be the best in the field at piloting his car - which includes knowing how to use the engine mode settings.

Once you bend the rules once it's easy to bend them again:

"I think we need to bend the rules so we can tell the drivers which gear to be in. There are a lot of gear changes and its impossible for the drivers to remember all of them"

I see what you're getting canis but let's face it we've hardly had a ton of 'engine mode incidents' that have effected races. The radio ban hardly had an effect on Rosberg in Spain did it. The teams are just hyping this up to change something they didn't want.

Remember that British Grand Prix where there were multiple tyre explosions and the teams were up in arms to make the tyres more durable? The lead team at the time we're Red Bull and they were most angry about it. Everyone moaned so much that they changed the rules. Remember how when they changed that rule Red Bull suddenly got dominant again and the racing got crap?

Don't be tricked into pushing other people's agendas.

 

[canis]

I am not trying to push others agenda. I was saying while watching he race before this discussion came up, either on the TV or on this forum, that the rules over radio comms go too far.

I have no problem with the rule in principle, certain engineers who are no longer sat on the pit wall were pushing radio comms to the extreme and telling the driver when to brake and how much steering to apply (Yes, I am talking about you Mr Smedley).

You will notice that all cars have the same (rough) number of settings and switches available to the driver. This is not because the teams decided this was the best way to go, this is because that is how it fits within the rules for each type of technology that is regulated within the cars. It is not the teams that design the cars in this way, it is the regulations. The teams have to have a specific engine, specific turbo size and power, specific ERS controls etc etc. Do you not think that if a team found a way to make the software easier for the driver to control they would have implemented it should it not break the rules?

The radio ban didn't affect Rosberg because it didn't have time to, by the time anyone other than him realised he was in the wrong engine mode he was cruising his way towards the armco with another car romantically entwined with his own.

I would support your argument on the Tyres after the British GP, but frankly no matter what your view point, those tyres were not fit for purpose and were a major safety issue if they could not manage to hold together on the circuit. If the problem were that the tyres wore out and gave grip for only 10 laps, that would have been different, but for tyres to explosively deflate at random intervals then they needed to be changed. I didn't like the result any more than you dd with Red bull becoming more of a dominating force that year, but something had to be done.

 

[RasputinLives]

Mark my words if they drop this rule we'll see Merc stretch out at the front again. They obviously want this changed for a reason. Can't help but think the majority of engine mode change calls came from Mercedes.

 

[Titch]

There is something wrong when a car is so complicated that the driver doesn't know which buttons to press to get the best out of his car. Something is wrong either with the car technology or the driver. Take your pick.

 

[gethinceri]

I couldn't care less, the racing's fine, nothing's broken, this isn't an issue, move on.

 

[Incubus]

Yeah, just hang the DJ.

 

[TR]

There is something wrong when a car is so complicated that the driver doesn't know which buttons to press to get the best out of his car. Something is wrong either with the car technology or the driver. Take your pick.

I think in the current situation most drivers know what buttons to push to get something near the best out of their car under most circumstances.

However, it is unrealistic to expect the driver to be able to debug an unexpected problem in their complex machines while driving. This neither a problem with the car technology nor with the driver. (Nobody expects a driver to fix his broken front wing while driving.)

Maybe if a (software) problem with a car occurs, the natural consequence would be that he goes into the pits to get it fixed. (Not that he goes fiddling with the settings until he fixed it himself.)

 

[TR]

I see what you're getting canis but let's face it we've hardly had a ton of 'engine mode incidents' that have effected races. The radio ban hardly had an effect on Rosberg in Spain did it. The teams are just hyping this up to change something they didn't want.

That seems like an odd example. Without a radio ban, the team would have simply told Rosberg that he was in the wrong mode before the start. He would have corrected the mode, and nothing would have happened. (Which would have a lot less interesting. This case is probably the best example of how the radio ban has effected races. for the better!)

 

[KekeTheKing]

Are they talking about banning Ferrari radio transmissions so children can watch the races with their parents again?

 

[Incubus]

So Mercedes weren't even allowed to tell him his engine mode was stuck on BBC4?...

 

[teabagyokel]

The one thing we've learned by hearing Hamilton, Raikkonen and Alonso moaning about this is that Rosberg, Vettel and Button are good at fixing stuff on the fly.

If nothing can go wrong in sport, no entertainment can occur. No Mercedes was beaten after Singapore last season, save Rosberg's DNF in Sochi. I believe the radio ban has contributed to the end of that.

And, yes, the ban must be absolute. Allow Yellow G6, and you allow Multi 21 or Purple T6 or Fernando Is Faster Than You. It is all or nothing. Nothing is awful.

 

[KekeTheKing]

Nico switched into the faulty mode during the race, realized it wasn't working, and switched out of it Certainly wouldn't take an engineer to work that one out.

 

[cider_and_toast]

I drive a Ford. It has traction contol, stability contol, ABS, a turbo, Fuel injection, variable valve timing and lift, ECO engine mode, an automatic gearbox and power steering. It's ECU is perfectly capable of handling all this data and alerting me to any faults that may occur. At no stage while approaching a roundabout on the A38 in slighlty damp conditions do I get the urge to ring Detroit and ask them for advice.

If a driver can't drive without constantly being on the radio then change the driver of the car. If Hamilton believed it was a serious issue and unsafe then he should have pitted and asked the team to change the setting. I don't believe there is a rule against that. On fresh rubber and the correct settings he could have gone on a real charge. At the very least the race couldn't have got worse.

 

[rufus_mcdufus]

Obviously if a driver can't handle the tech then it reflects badly on them, but alternately if a great driver is unable to compete properly because of complicated tech issues which would be easily solvable with radio comms but currently aren't, then that does tend to ruin the spectacle of the racing somewhat.

 

[RasputinLives]

That seems like an odd example. Without a radio ban, the team would have simply told Rosberg that he was in the wrong mode before the start.

Well no because he switches to the correct engine mode after he finishes the warm up lap and before the lights go out. They would not have had time.

 

[rufus_mcdufus]

The crazy thing is - if no coaching is allowed over the radio then why were the Mercedes pit allowed to even tell Lewis he was in the wrong mode (or whatever it was)?

 

[Dizzi]

cider_and_toast , I wouldn't be surprised if teams weren't allowed to change settings during a race even in the pit lane.
Personally I thought not being able to correct the issues seen on Sunday did detract from the event, people don't spend a lot of time and money to see the drivers pootling around instead of racing. There's a big difference between instruction on correcting a settinge to allow racing and instructing a driver how to take a corner.
There is also the worry that if a driver is looking at his steering wheel he's not looking at the road or traffic so it becomes a safety issue.
Of course had Merc not made a balls up with the settings in the first place we wouldn't have this thread so I guess the lesson to be learnt for the teams is get it right in the first place!

 

[TR]

Well no because he switches to the correct engine mode after he finishes the warm up lap and before the lights go out. They would not have had time.

There is plenty of time to tell a driver to switch to the correct mode at the end of the warm-up lap. That is exactly what was happening before: teams coaching the drivers through every detail of the pre-start procedure. It was also the first thing that was hit by the clampdown last year.