Martin Whitmarsh laments the "rise of the pay driver"

[mnmracer]

It all depends on circumstances. Valsechi has spent 7 years in the highest junior classes before he started to produce results. Even more than with Maldonado (who finished 3rd in FR3.5) or van der Garde (champion in FR3.5), when it takes that long to produce results, having the coin flip your way one year doesn't automatically give you a golden ticket. Compare that to Hamilton (GP2), Vettel (FR3.5) or Bottas (F3/GP3) and you've got a very different situation.

 

[Andyoak]

To me it seems there are two issues surrounding this:

The first is one that Frank Williams has recently spoken about... it takes money to race competitively and in the current climate and with the current costs in F1 that means you have to employ one or more 'pay' drivers.
The only way around this problem is to reduce the costs required to race competetively... and no-one has come up with a workable system to do this yet.

The second one is that pay drivers are not necessarily bad drivers. The term is too broad to carry any meaning when it involves personal sponsorship; value to the team and possibly a set of skills that aren't immediately apparent to those outside the team.

This discussion has been going on for as long as I can remember.

In all walks of life it isn't necessarily the best man who gets the top job... only in the top 4 or 5 drivers can you safely say that 'talent will out'.

 

[RasputinLives]

I thought it was the general consensus last year that not winning because of 'bad luck' or 'not the best material' doesn't make you a bad driver. Guess Hamilton and Kimi are over-rated then...

Either way, whatever bitter view some people have on new drivers, the criticism on Whitmarsh's double standard still stands.

To be honest you are the one that is coming across as bitter actually and I'm not really sure why. I don't rate some of the drivers coming in and I would rather see the F1 grid filled on talent than by money. I think its sad F1 has got to the point where the little teams have to rely on who can bring what to the pot when choosing drivers rather than who can push them up the grid. I'm pretty sure thats what Whitmarsh, Hamilton, Massa and Brundle mean too. I'm not quite sure why you want to get so het up about that view. Am I not allowed to rate or not rate certain drivers? Should we carry in with pay drivers because we've always had them. As for bad luck. Its all objective isn't it. And of course I didn't say Kimi or Lewis were over rated. If I had of done I'd of underlined it or written it in capitals.

I'm sure you'll come back with a great reply proving that Van Der Garde is the next Senna or Chilton is the next jesus or something but I'm afraid I don't rate them from what I've seen and I'd rather have Kovi and Kobi on the grid. As your never going to change that (infact your insults and taunts just make me dislike them more) I shall not continue this circular argument. Lump me in with Whitmarsh and co. They sound more fun to be wiyh anyway.

 

[mnmracer]

Agree.

As I've pointed out before, there is good reason to believe that the Vettel's, Alonso's and Hamilton's of the racing world do find a way to rise to the top, regardless of finances. It doesn't mean it's a shame to miss out on potential top drivers like Button, Webber and Massa, but they are easier to come by and it's not like we don't have a steady supply of top drivers anyway. The actual loss of talent, is not as big as it is made out to be. It's also not like the 'pay drivers' of these days are anywhere near as bad as the Rosset's, Marques' and Mazzacane's of yesteryear. I think few disagree Karthikeyan was the least-talented driver on the grid last year, but even he is a league above the pay drivers of the '80s. '90s and early 00's.

 

[mnmracer]

To be honest you are the one that is coming across as bitter actually and I'm not really sure why.

I assure you, there is nothing bitter about being excited about seeing new drivers trying to prove themselves. It's rather exciting not to bitterly mark drivers as bad before they've had a chance to proof themselves whether or not they deserve to be burned and thrown away. It's exciting to not bitterly moan the loss of Heikki, but be excited to see what the new batch of drivers can do.

I wonder why you say you don't rate drivers, while you've made it an effort to rate some of them down. Maybe you believe that the fact I think ALL new drivers deserve a fair chance, I think they are all the new Senna, and thus you only have the choice between burning them or glorifying them.

I assure you, Whitmarsh and anyone who doesn't want to give drivers a chance to proof themselves before judging them, that it's perfectly acceptable to just wait and see how a driver performs before you nail him to the cross.

 

[RasputinLives]

I know I said I wasn't going to answer but I just have to say. I've seen all the new drivers in action in GP2, GP3 and the world series etc some for many years. So please get off your high horse and stop making out people are judging drivers without seeing them.

Also I will say if you were part of this community you would know that I've been campaigning to get Bottas in a race seat for nearly a year and am very excited about him. I'm also usually the first to write up a profile for someone new coming in so don't give me that.

I don't get excited about something just because its new. New doesn't always mean better.

Now good day to you sir.

 

[mnmracer]

If you are so in tune with junior series, you should really know how judging a F1 driver on his junior career, is a bad idea, both in a good (Kobayashi) and a bad (Pantono) way, and it happens a lot. Compare Vettel, Alonso, Webber, Massa to Pantano, Piquet, Rosset, Bourdais.

 

[Josh]

mnmracer

For someone who is all about facts your list is strangely incomplete. Nakajima was still racing in 2009, yet he is not listed as a pay driver while he is listed as a pay driver in earlier years. Senna is a pay driver yet he is not on your list. Maldonado is a pay driver. Pèrez was a pay driver. Petrov was a pay driver. Grosjean is a pay driver. Yamamoto was a pay driver.

There's probably one or two others I've missed but there are definitely more than you made it out to be.

 

[mnmracer]

It was a reply to the idea of pay drivers who are and stay in F1 only because of money. Maldonado, Perzez, Grosjean, etc. have all proven to be at least decent drivers; not the level of Karthikeyan/Rosset.

 

[RasputinLives]

I judge on what I see. Like I said if someone I rate badly comes good I'm first to say I got it wrong but if someone who I didn't rate in GP2 comes into F1 I'm not suddenly going to scrub out my opinion. Van Der Garde and Chilton I don't think are good enough. I'm not massively sure about Razia but he was runner up last year so he's prob earned his shot a bit more. Gutteriez I don't think is bad but probably could have done with another year in GP2. I don't think last years GP2 grid was a very strong quality and I'm dissapointed so many have made the grid

Bottas I'm excited about. I think he looked great in lower formula and I think he's done a better job than anyone in impressing in the 'Friday P1' role.

Bianchi I'm interested in. Was seen as the next big thing at one point but had an average year in GP2 in 2011. He kind of restored a little bit of rep in the world series last year and Ferrari seem to think highly of him. Rather see him in the car than Glasser Sutil anyways

But I'll be honest I'd still rather see Kobi in a seat above all of them except for Bottas. He's a driver I think has been getting better every year. I also don't think Kovi or Petrov deserve to be out either. Not this year anyways. Your Senna's Sutil's and you Heidfelds I can happily wave goodbye to and I'm not sad the Alguersauri isn't back either (I have a soft spot for Buemi the moose though)

No matter which drivers come in though it still remains a frustration to me that smaller teams recruit on money issues not talent issues and thats what this 'outcry' is all about. No one is distespecting anyone. I know I've been picking on Van Der Garde but thats just my sense of humour and I'm sure people know me well enough on here to know that if in some mixed up race he hit the friend I'd be out my chair cheering him on.

Now isn't it nice when we sit down and talk nicely eh?

 

[teabagyokel]

It is nice when you talk nicely, therefore do it or you'll get a note in the inbox area.

 

[RasputinLives]

that sounds painful

 

[Il_leone]

pay driver..they've always been in formula one ...some kid from a rich family business or inheritance or got powerful sponsors

it is just that the aftermath of the global recession means there are less sources for financing especially the smaller teams

the danger here is obviously will Formula One witness a grid where its full of pay drivers who don;t merit their seat ie say over 75% of the field

Unfortunately Bernie's megalomaniac ego vs the teams wanting more money political makes it easy to see why small teams tend to be always the losers in this

 

[gethinceri]

If we were to insert the term "Gentleman Driver" in the stead of "Pay Driver" (sorry Ladies) would this thread become a little less antagonistic?

 

[Mephistopheles]

No I don't believe it would...

Also I cannot see why or from which direction the arguments are coming from? But mostly why....

Edit.

To be honest this thread lost me a few pages ago when it turned into bickering which is a shame as the premise of the thread is a good one....

 

[F1ang-o]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/21194933

Another opinion on the subject..........

 

[Brogan]

From that article:

Sergio Perez, Button's team-mate at McLaren this year, owed his arrival in F1 with Sauber in 2011 to significant financial backing from his home country Mexico. In that sense, he was a pay driver.
Now, insiders expect McLaren's Mexican sponsorship portfolio to grow as a result of his joining the team. So was the lure of potential sponsorship one of the main reasons McLaren took Perez and is he still therefore a 'pay driver'?

Which is what I said in the opening post.

Team boss Martin Whitmarsh says not, but there was surprise up and down the pit lane that McLaren did not instead choose German Nico Hulkenberg, whose performances have arguably been more impressive, but who is not linked to significant funding.

Well he would say that, wouldn't he? He's hardly going to criticise one of his own for being a pay driver, even though we all know that's exactly what he is.

 

[FB]

Didn't Santander come to McLaren when Alonso joined and then jumped to Ferrari when he turned up there?

 

[Brogan]

Without Santander though, Alonso would still get a drive.

The same can't be said for Pérez and others like him.

 

[FB]

Indeed so, but it must help when making the decision. Which, I suppose, is the point of this thread.