Martin Whitmarsh laments the "rise of the pay driver"
- Thread starter Brogan
- Start date
Once again I don't think that any of us doubt that some money backed drivers have talent. Perez was on Ferrari's books after all. But some of the current lot really don't look like they have. They may prove me wrong.....lets hope so. But currently due to the large amount and pedigree of them it was always going to be a topic raised and they were always going to be percieved like that. I'm not sure why people are getting there knickers in a twist saying how unfair it is. Its perfectly fair.
I seem to remember a discussion not long ago about how the GP2 2012 field was not of the best quality and we've ended up with 4 of them in F1 aand not even the guy that won it!
I seem to remember a discussion not long ago about how the GP2 2012 field was not of the best quality and we've ended up with 4 of them in F1 aand not even the guy that won it!
Chanoch Nissany..
mnmracer
Points Scorer
Yes, let's compare, not on gut-feeling, but on actual numbers:
34 pay-drivers in 9 years (3.8 /year) from 2000 - 2008
25 arguable in 9 years (2.8 /year) from 2000 - 2008
5 pay-drivers in 4 years (1.25 /year) from 2009 - 2012
10 arguable in 4 years (2.5 /year) from 2009 - 2012
Just shows even more how misguided this outcry on pay-drivers is.
2000
pay-drivers (4): Burti, Diniz, Gené, Mazzacane
arguable (3): Zonta, Verstappen, de la Rosa
2001
pay-drivers (5): Burti, Marques, Yoong, Mazzacane, Enge
arguable (3): Zonta, Bernoldi, Verstappen
2002
pay-drivers (1): Yoong
arguable (4): McNish, de la Rosa, Bernoldi, Davidson
2003
pay-drivers (5): Gené, Baumgartner, Firman, Pizzonia, Kiesa
arguable (2): Wilson, Verstappen
2004
pay-drivers (5): Gené, Pizzonia, Pantano, Bruni, Baumgartner
arguable (2): Zonta, Villeneuve
2005
pay-drivers (3): Pizzonia, Karthikeyan, Albers
arguable (3): Monteiro, Villeneuve, Liuzzi
2006
pay-drivers (5): Speed, Montagny, Ide, Yamamoto, Albers
arguable (3): Monteiro, Villeneuve, Liuzzi
2007
pay-drivers (5): Nakajima, Speed, Albers, Winkelhock, Yamamoto
arguable (3): Davidson, Liuzzi
2008
pay-drivers (1): Nakajima
arguable (2): Piquet Jr, Davidson
34 pay-drivers in 9 years (3.8 /year) from 2000 - 2008
25 arguable in 9 years (2.8 /year) from 2000 - 2008
2009
arguable (2): Piquet Jr, Liuzzi
2010
pay-drivers (2): Chandhock, Yamamoto
arguable (3): Liuzzi, di Grassi, de la Rosa
2011
pay-drivers (2): Chandhock, Karthikeyan
arguable (3): Liuzzi, d'Ambrosio, de la Rosa
2012
pay-drivers (1): Karthikeyan
arguable (2): d'Ambrosio, de la Rosa
5 pay-drivers in 4 years (1.25 /year) from 2009 - 2012
10 arguable in 4 years (2.5 /year) from 2009 - 2012
Just shows even more how misguided this outcry on pay-drivers is.
Your arguables are exceptionally arguable especially as d'Ambrosio only had one race as a reserve driver and actually got the shot coz of manager connections nothing to do with sponsorship. Don't get me started on De La Rosa.
Liuzzi was a pay driver when he was brought through by Red Bulls youth system to drive for Toro Rosso? What!? Jacques Villeneurve? And yet Bruno Senna is not on your list at all! What an odd odd list.
eh? What? How does showing there were less pay drivers in F1 proof that we shouldn't have an outcry about more coming in? I'm very confused.
I think however that whatever list you produce you'll find the 'outcry' has actually come from top names in F1 like Martin Whitmarsh, Lewis Hamilton, Fellipe Massa, Martin Brundle etc etc who are actually in the business. Maybe you should present your stats to them?
I think however that whatever list you produce you'll find the 'outcry' has actually come from top names in F1 like Martin Whitmarsh, Lewis Hamilton, Fellipe Massa, Martin Brundle etc etc who are actually in the business. Maybe you should present your stats to them?
mnmracer
Points Scorer
Senna held up pretty well against Maldonado, who's shown to be more than money.
Villeneuve in the last years was not in F1 anymore because of his former talent.
Liuzzi is there because some might argue it was money that kept him in F1 (don't personally agree).
But if you know so much better, feel free to give your 2 cents rather than just complain.
Villeneuve in the last years was not in F1 anymore because of his former talent.
Liuzzi is there because some might argue it was money that kept him in F1 (don't personally agree).
But if you know so much better, feel free to give your 2 cents rather than just complain.
mnmracer
Points Scorer
We have already established that 'more coming in' is a BS argument. Maldonado was considered a pay-driver coming in, Perez was, Kobayashi was. Those are all drivers that have shown that this kind of pre-season judgement is completely ignorant of F1's history. Despite some people's lust to burn these new drivers, there is no indication that they can not be like Maldonado, Perez or Kobayashi. Hell, even Petrov turned out to be quite capable.
Senna held up pretty well? I think you just destroyed your own argument.
Lambast me, Tell me I'm moaning bamboozle us all with stats and figures it doesn't matter there are some simple facts to this whole thing. As we enter the 2013 we have a great deal of drivers with talent who people felt added to the F1 grid not on it these year and we have a great deal of drivers on the grid that people are looking at and thinking we don't think they should be here instead of the guys that have left. A great deal of fans think it and a great deal of F1 insiders thing it and people feel its a shame F1 has to rely on finance rather than on talent like a sport should be. Thats why people are talking about it and thats why its a topic. Discussing how much money Enrique Bernoldi had in his wallet weighing that bright orange car down in 2001 ain't going to change squat I'm afraid.
The new drivers will be judged when they race but on current judging some people find them lacking. Thats the nature of F1. I'm sure there are drivers you don't rate that others do and I'm almost certain however many stats people present you then you won't change your mind. We know you're the president of the Van Der Garde fan club and thats brilliant, good for you. I however watched him in GP2 last year and thought he was a bit cac. If he turns out to be some sort of world beater then I shall say "wow wasn't I wrong! Go Giedo!" but until then I'm entitled to have my opinion just as I'm entitled to think we have too many pay drivers. So chill bill!
Lambast me, Tell me I'm moaning bamboozle us all with stats and figures it doesn't matter there are some simple facts to this whole thing. As we enter the 2013 we have a great deal of drivers with talent who people felt added to the F1 grid not on it these year and we have a great deal of drivers on the grid that people are looking at and thinking we don't think they should be here instead of the guys that have left. A great deal of fans think it and a great deal of F1 insiders thing it and people feel its a shame F1 has to rely on finance rather than on talent like a sport should be. Thats why people are talking about it and thats why its a topic. Discussing how much money Enrique Bernoldi had in his wallet weighing that bright orange car down in 2001 ain't going to change squat I'm afraid.
The new drivers will be judged when they race but on current judging some people find them lacking. Thats the nature of F1. I'm sure there are drivers you don't rate that others do and I'm almost certain however many stats people present you then you won't change your mind. We know you're the president of the Van Der Garde fan club and thats brilliant, good for you. I however watched him in GP2 last year and thought he was a bit cac. If he turns out to be some sort of world beater then I shall say "wow wasn't I wrong! Go Giedo!" but until then I'm entitled to have my opinion just as I'm entitled to think we have too many pay drivers. So chill bill!
mnmracer
Points Scorer
For someone who was regarded just a pay-driver, Senna held up pretty well. Just an average driver, of which there are plenty. If we hold everyone up by the standard of Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton, there's not going to be much of a F1 field.
It's funny you talk about some simple facts and then dismiss them. You can 'feel' whatever you want, but you or other people making statements like "it is so much worse than in the early 2000's" when it's measurably not, is just disrespectful to anyone involved that might be tricked into believing such untruths.
As for the double standard -there is no reason to suspect any of the new drivers now will not be able to do what drivers like Perez, Maldonado and Kobayashi did in a similar situation- that's just poor behavior in my opinion. I believe everyone deserves an equal chance in an equal situation.
It's funny you talk about some simple facts and then dismiss them. You can 'feel' whatever you want, but you or other people making statements like "it is so much worse than in the early 2000's" when it's measurably not, is just disrespectful to anyone involved that might be tricked into believing such untruths.
As for the double standard -there is no reason to suspect any of the new drivers now will not be able to do what drivers like Perez, Maldonado and Kobayashi did in a similar situation- that's just poor behavior in my opinion. I believe everyone deserves an equal chance in an equal situation.
Was Bruno Senna not a paydriver then? Not only did he bring money but he also brought the Senna name, just as useful for publicity sponsorship deals.
Err no, it doesn't.
I started the thread and I also alluded to drivers such as Pérez who only have a drive due to backing/sponsorship.
Can I just say Maldo came into F1 as GP2 champion, Perez came in as runner up. Some of the new guys haven't even finished in the top 3. There is every reason to suspect some of these new drivers are not the same quality as the departing ones. Don't quote Kobi at me either. They are exceptions not the norm and the same was said about them not being quality enough when they came in. Like I've said before some of them will prove themselves but the majority will fail miserably.
You can twist your facts round all you like but its easy to break down. Have the five new drivers got into F1 on talent alone? No. I don't care who has done what before when where and how I don't like it. I would prefer a grid assembled on talent as would everyone else. I know its not going to happen but we can hope. No one is disrespecting anyone on here so I don't know who you are defending. These drivers aren't in on just talent. Its sad F1 is like that. End of.
Oh and underlining things don't make them any truer.
You can twist your facts round all you like but its easy to break down. Have the five new drivers got into F1 on talent alone? No. I don't care who has done what before when where and how I don't like it. I would prefer a grid assembled on talent as would everyone else. I know its not going to happen but we can hope. No one is disrespecting anyone on here so I don't know who you are defending. These drivers aren't in on just talent. Its sad F1 is like that. End of.
Oh and underlining things don't make them any truer.
mnmracer
Points Scorer
I thought it was the general consensus last year that not winning because of 'bad luck' or 'not the best material' doesn't make you a bad driver. Guess Hamilton and Kimi are over-rated then...
Either way, whatever bitter view some people have on new drivers, the criticism on Whitmarsh's double standard still stands.
Either way, whatever bitter view some people have on new drivers, the criticism on Whitmarsh's double standard still stands.
RickD
Pole Sitter
Hold on, a certain M Schumacher came in without winning much in the previous few years, winning at lower levels does not always mean the drivers who do not succed will fail at F1. If it was that simple, we would know who would do well in F1. All the drivers coming in this year may well have impressed with certain aspects in their lower formulas. I know a few of them have at times looked impressive, at other times have looked mediocre, but that doesn't mean they won't shine in F1. I say give them a chance before slating them.
Valsecchi I am a littel surprised about, but maybe team bosses thought a year testing may have been the best move for him, none of us know what he may have to work on or whether he accepted the first contract that came along rather than holding out for a drive..
Valsecchi I am a littel surprised about, but maybe team bosses thought a year testing may have been the best move for him, none of us know what he may have to work on or whether he accepted the first contract that came along rather than holding out for a drive..
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