Let's NOT Wing It...

[RevMaxPower]

What with KERS, DRS and all the other 'toys' installed in F1 cars these days in seemingly desperate attempts to improve the sport I would like to play "Devil's Advocate..."

Simply put, what would be the effect of just removing all the wings and aerodynamic tweaks? Surely this would result in the drivers having to DRIVE with a lot more care and at high speed this is bound to sort the Men from the Boys and bring the main focus back to the pilot instead of the car..

(And it would also reduce the cost of the car.)

Your opinions?

 

[Andyoak]

The Devil went down to Georgia...

This appears to be a spin on the old 'back to basics' threads; but now seems a good time to resurrect these and as I've always found it hard to ignore The Devil, lets have that chat...

Removing wings will make the drivers drive more but that isn't to say they aren't driving now; just that what they do is very different to what you or I do, day-to-day, in our cars. Much as I hate the term, they are a combination of driver and 'pilot' (aaargh) in the way they are managing a raft of systems / devices over and above the stuff we deal with. That is good; that requires skills you and I don't have and why we usually recognise them and their talents.

However, removing wings will not remove aero from the equation; it will merely move to treating the whole car (chassis and body) as an aero device incorporating ground effect aerodynamics. I, and many of us here like this option but I can understand why the FIA / FOTA may be against it. My first thoughts are that with wings it is relatively easy to set parameters and manage compliance. By removing measurable devices the FIA would have to measure the whole car for 'aero' compliance and there are only two ways I can see that going. Either a heavily prescribed spec series with little design freedom or something which is very chaotic and open to constant bickering and challenges that result in more races being decided weeks down the line.

Even as a fan of DRS I recognise it as a stop gap measure until ground effect can be re-introduced to F1. But it serves a purpose and does it effectively. I don't hold with the arguement that it dillutes overtaking skills and has made the races boring; Vettel leading from pole to finish fdoes that for me. I would like to see DRS freed up more but I've dealt with that on other threads.

KERS I can fully understand. It is a tool to keep power levels up and is a technology that engine / car manufacturers are developing and incorporating into their cars. So the move to smaller petrol turbo hybrids (in a detuned state) has commercial relevance to the people who stump up the cash for F1.

Finally, will it reduce the cost of the car... quite simply no.
Teams will always spend as much money as they can afford to beat the other teams. The only way to keep the costs down is to have a rigourously policed budget cap; but I don't think even the FBI (yet alone the FIA) would be able to do that with teams as big as Ferrari.

Good post Axel... let's see where it goes.

 

[Greenlantern101]

I can't help think that without downforce you would end up go-kart racing.
Down force is essential in F1 to put down the power. How could you use 900 BHP coming out a corner without down force.
I simply don't think it would work.

Down force and F1 go hand in hand. We have come to far since the 50's to get rid of downforce. Leave it be.

 

[RevMaxPower]

Basically I agree that the high tech extras have their place. I too feel that if you're going to have something as useful as DRS then it should be available at any time during a race. Hopefully this modification to the rules is not too far away.

The original post was to see if anybody thought F1 could be good here in the 21st century if the cars did not have any wings attached as add ons. You see I consider that the development of racing cars WITHOUT wings and having the aero devices actually built into the car bodywork shape could have a massive spin off effect for our road cars. None of us want to drive around looking like numpties with flipping great wings on our cars but well, a sharp looking futuristic body design would be a different kettle of fish for sure - especially if it improved the performance and/or handling as well...

 

[FB]

Our good friend DOF_Power used to get quite vexed by this question - where is he when you need someone to supply a good rant

Anyway, as I have mentioned in some of the threads he has posted previoulsy, Indy cars have suggested going down this route with their Delta Wing car.

The problem is, as Andyoak points out, either F1 becomes a spec series (which I don't think any of us want) or there will lots of arguments about "improvements" different engineers include into their cars. Perhaps a more liberal attitude is required to the rules rather than being overly prescriptive so that designers can be more imaginative - simply control the power via engine managment, fuel restrictions and tyre technology.

 

[RevMaxPower]

Mmmm

Our good friend DOF_Power used to get quite vexed by this question - where is he when you need someone to supply a good rant

Anyway, as I have mentioned in some of the threads he has posted previoulsy, Indy cars have suggested going down this route with their Delta Wing car.

The problem is, as Andyoak points out, either F1 becomes a spec series (which I don't think any of us want) or there will lots of arguments about "improvements" different engineers include into their cars. Perhaps a more liberal attitude is required to the rules rather than being overly prescriptive so that designers can be more imaginative - simply control the power via engine managment, fuel restrictions and tyre technology.

MMmmm... Looks a bit difficult to park outside the Supermarket, I must admit. To be honest I prefer something along the lines of the Audi R18TDi... (Minus WING, of course!)

 

[Andyoak]

Can't say I'm too keen on the batmobile tricycle look and I do think F1 must stay open wheel racing (I'm in danger of sounding terribly conservative here).

I'm actually with FB and would like to free up car design and control speed etc through tweaking tyres, fuel loads etc.

I'd like to think we don't want to drive around in cars that sprout wings all over the place but driving through Ross of an evening I think we're losing that arguement. As it is all the 'supercars' seem to be sprouting wings once they get over 70... only Bristol seemed to believe it wasn't necessary.

Ce la vie...

 

[RevMaxPower]

Can't say I'm too keen on the batmobile tricycle look and I do think F1 must stay open wheel racing (I'm in danger of sounding terribly conservative here).

I'm actually with FB and would like to free up car design and control speed etc through tweaking tyres, fuel loads etc.

I'd like to think we don't want to drive around in cars that sprout wings all over the place but driving through Ross of an evening I think we're losing that arguement. As it is all the 'supercars' seem to be sprouting wings once they get over 70... only Bristol seemed to believe it wasn't necessary.

Ce la vie...

Wings 'ain't what they used to be...

 

[Andyoak]

ouch... back to work for a bit

 

[Grizzly]

Seems relevant to drop this in...

For any new folk that have not yet seen Divergent Governance: How to Increase Overtaking and Mechanical Diversity, take a look! But make sure your sitting comfortably with plenty of tea and biscuits!

 

[RevMaxPower]

Ah - you just beat me to it with that sound advice Grizzly...