Is this the beginning of the Red Bull slide ?

Il_leone

Champion Elect
Whilst all the talk has been about the driver farce at Sauber and Mclaren being slower than snail. On pre-season testing form it appeared Red Bull were going to be Mercedes' nearest challengers but appears to be struggling to keep pace with Williams and Ferrari.

Now some will say it is down to Newey not designing the car but Horner and Marko have once again laid the blame at the door of Renault who were suppose to be working more closely with them
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/31885720

Apparently something more colourful than " mess it up badly" was said by Christian Horner about Renault not being able to close the power gap to Mercedes and if anything it has increased

Be careful what you say Horner .. in the past French companies tend to take criticisms badly and are prepared to strike in protest. So could this potentially become a fractured relationship especially when Honda F1 engines are built not too far from Red Bull's factory at Milton Keynes

Potentially embarrassing is junior team Toro Rosso using the same engines were almost as quick and they managed to outqualify Kyvat. So really it can't be all down to the engine then if their junior team using significantly less resources is almost as fast ?
 

siffert_fan

Too old to watch the Asian races live.
Contributor
Remember that Ricciardo is on his second engine and it is only the first race! So obviously, the Renault is appearing to be a massive POS.
 

Mephistopheles

Banned
Contributor
That's what they say Bill Boddy but I don't buy it Newey wanted to design the America's Cup boat and Red Bull let him do this to keep him out of Ferrari's hands, so I reckon Newey is nothing more than a consultant to the F1 team and has had little to no input to the current design of this years car..
 

teabagyokel

#dejavu
Valued Member
They're still at the sharp end of the Renaults, I just think their deficit to Mercedes has expanded and Ferrari have produced a much superior power unit.
 

sushifiesta

Champion Elect
Contributor
It's kind of ironic that the manufacturer pushing for the change to more efficient engines (Renault) is the one most disadvantaged by it.
 

snowy

Champion Elect
If I were Renault and in view of the comments made by Christian Horner and Helmut Marko I would politely tell Red Bull Racing to go **** themselves. Their comments are clearly defamatory and in breach of their contract. Teams win together and lose together, clearly, in view of RBR and Renaults recent steps to forge closer ties and integration these comments are not going to help them going forward. This is no way to treat a historically successful partner in a difficult period of its existence. Red Bull Racing ought to stop drinking so much of that hyper slop they produce, pause and reflect on their successes and their own recent failings. F1 is all about running round in circles, it is cyclic, highs and lows are inevitable and should both be embraced and used to make one stronger.
 
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Incubus

Champion Elect
Red Bull and Horner have constantly criticised Renault for years, forever banging on about their inferior top speeds.

What they consistently overlooked though was that for years they have also been almost invariably slowest of all on top-speeds, i.e slower than other Renault-powered cars too. Which means that their consistently low top-speeds over the past few years must have primarily been the consequence of their aero philosophy, with absolute priority given to maximising downforce generation.

In the era of Red Bull domination the Renault never had the power of the Merc or Ferrari but it was good on torque and widely suspected of being less thirsty, something that was apparent in 2009 when they published qualifying weights and compared them with when drivers actually carried out their first pit-stops in the following day's races.

That probably meant Red Bull once refuelling was outlawed could afford to carry slightly less fuel at the start of races.

I don't recall Horner nor Red Bull ever giving Renault credit for this nor indeed for anything else...
 
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Shogun

Rookie
Renalt's power unit is inferior right now. Thats a fact. If Renault gets their panties all in a bunch and doesnt want Red Bull to use their engines any more, Im sure Ferrari, Merc or Honda would be more than happy to supply power units to RBR.
 

sushifiesta

Champion Elect
Contributor
Im sure Ferrari, Merc or Honda would be more than happy to supply power units to RBR.

I doubt it! How would that conversation go? "Hello Mr. Newey, here is a supply of our finest engines so that you can beat the works team". If Red Bull abandon Renault they'll end up having to convince a new manufacturer to come in to the sport, in my opinion.
 

P1

Podium Finisher
I have a couple of observations here:
1) Many other teams which slid down the order were also sliding because they lost sponsorship and budget as a result of a few bad years. That is probably not the case here - so they still have budget - they just aren't getting the results
2) The reason they aren't getting results has a lot to do with the engine (although this year my sense is the aero has slipped too).
3) Renault isn't going to get the job done.

My sense is that for Red Bull to get back to the top - they need another engine manufacturer. And I really hope Renault leaves and Audi or BMW comes in.
 

sushifiesta

Champion Elect
Contributor
I don't think we should ever hope that a manufacturer leaves, that's always bad news for the sport. Renault does seem to be in a big mess but they have made changes to their structure and are getting help from some external experts. Those changes meant that any major engine developments weren't ready for the start of this year, and their strategy is clearly focused on narrowing the gap to Mercedes for 2016 (hence why they left so many tokens unused).

The new reliability issues on top of the power deficit being maintained or extended is unfortunate and frustrating for Red Bull to say the least, but they really should be more careful about what they're saying. They were the ones calling for closer integration between them and Renault last year, but all the comments in the media very much give an "us and them" attitude. We should be seeing the same sort of comments from Red Bull that we are getting from McLaren about performance/reliability being crap now but their being a clear plan in place to tackle Mercedes going forward.

I don't believe there's any new manufacturer on the sidelines ready to pull the trigger (Audi have repeatedly denied any plans to enter F1), so Renault is Red Bull's only feasible option unless they want to become a customer team. Even if there was a new manufacturer, the early struggles Honda are having show moving to a new engine is no quick fix. Red Bull need to stop shooting themselves in the foot and commit to Renault. However, the reverse is also true - Renault need to commit to Red Bull and rumours of them thinking of running their own team again won't help that.
 

siffert_fan

Too old to watch the Asian races live.
Contributor
I would absolutely love to see BMW come back as an engine (power unit) provider! It always seemed to me that they had the most powerful engine of the day but were let down by reliability issues of both the engines and the chassis they were located in.

I have to admit that I, for one, do not like major manufacturers doing more than provide engines. They come and they go, and the fortunes of the sport vary accordingly.At least if all they do is supply engines, you don't lose entire teams when the inevitable dropping out of the manufacturers takes place.
 
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snowy

Champion Elect
"When we were winning, and we were never winning with the advantage they [Mercedes] have, I remember double diffusers were banned, exhausts were moved, flexible bodywork was prohibited, engine mapping mid-season was changed,"

Christian Horner has a short and selective memory, last season the FIA responded to Mercedes dominance by banning FRIC suspension. Unfortunately this backfired horribly because Mercedes were only doing an average job of it and many teams were a darn sight better at it! I am also certain the FIA banning radio messages was introduced to throw a spanner in Mercedes well oiled machine.
 

Shogun

Rookie
I doubt it! How would that conversation go? "Hello Mr. Newey, here is a supply of our finest engines so that you can beat the works team". If Red Bull abandon Renault they'll end up having to convince a new manufacturer to come in to the sport, in my opinion.
Did Merc not supply engines to McLaren a few years ago when they were kicking AMG's butts?
 
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