FIA Has messing with the cars distracted the FIA from sorting out the circuits?

[Fenderman]

Forums have been on fire this season with the tyre, EBD and DRS debates. Does anyone else out there feel like me that some attention should be paid to the circuits?

What about re-evaluating the huge run-off areas and subsequent lack of a penalty for driver errors?

What about the Mickey Mouse chicanes that, whilst providing potential for overtaking often only lead to busted bodywork?

And finally, is there any research or re-evaluation going on regarding the surface materials of circuits that could improve levels of grip off the racing line and reduce the effect of or propensity to retain the 'marbles'? On this last issue I feel that one of the fundamental problems limiting overtaking since the 1990's has been the virtual impossibility of overtaking off the racing line (However, I do accept that this season has been better in this respect due to differences between old and new tyres, soft/hard compounds).

Just wondering

 

[Slyboogy]

Hm...indeed

They were going to this year make changes to some circuits, most notably Circuit de Catalunya and the Yas Marina, however these changes I am afraid probably wont take place since these new rules have came in and changed the spectacle and because of this the circuit owners don't want to waste money revising their circuits as the new rules cover the problems.

I rather have circuit changes to aid overtaking, rather than having car changes to well not aid overtake but create a farce of it.

I think there are too many run off areas aswell, they have dumbed down Spa a lot, less than Suzuka. Don't know why they feel the need to have so many run off area's in a circuit, it's like a get out of jail card for the drivers.

 

[Josephiah]

Or a get out of death card?

 

[F1Yorkshire]

Hm...indeed

They were going to this year make changes to some circuits, most notably Circuit de Catalunya and the Yas Marina, however these changes I am afraid probably wont take place since these new rules have came in and changed the spectacle and because of this the circuit owners don't want to waste money revising their circuits as the new rules cover the problems.

The big change needed at Catalunya could be made at minimal cost as they will just be going back to the original layout without the silly final chicane. The tarmac still exists, they will just need to repaint some of the lines and re-issue circuit maps!

For Abu Dhabi it's even easier as it was built with many alternative routes.

Money isn't the reason for not changing these circuits, it's more of a political Ecclestone shaped decision.

 

[sportsman]

Its nothing to do with Ecclestone.Try the FIA circuit regulations.
Why should the circuits be designed for F1 cars.
Its up to the teams to design cars that can race on the tracks provided.An F1 GP is a once a year race, on which most circuits lose money.
The rest of the year other series race on the same track without having problems overtaking.

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/0311B5A442CB0EB6C12577FC004CD946/$FILE/Décembre 2010_Annexe O 2010_Modifications en cours d'année 2010 en rouge .pdf

 

[sobriety]

I don't mind the long run offs, they're there for safety reasons. But they need to consist of super slippy/super grippy sections, so that they slow you down, but not until you're miles of the circuit, negating any advantage of running wide. I'd imagine that there would be a problem with applying this to motorcycle racing though...

 

[snowy]

Lets just focus on astroturf for one second...

If you were a circuit designer for high performance motor racing, would you put a strip of astroturf any where near your track?
Answer: No.
You would have to be clinically insane, profoundly chuffing stupid and psychotic.

If you answered yes, you have all the qualifications to work for the FIA.

 

[RevMaxPower]

We try to stay on the road when we're driving and adjust to the conditions - be it wet, dry or damp. We also adjust our speed for bends of course.... If we crash we get hurt, which is why we try to stay on the road.

Just boggles my mind to think professional racing drivers are unable to do the same and need massive run off areas "just in case".

 

[sportsman]

I have no objection to run off areas due to the fact that not all racing on these circuits is done by professional racing drivers or in F1 cars with all their safety features.
Circuits have to be run as a business catering for all types of racing, all types of cars, motorcycles which do not share the F1 cars safety shell tub.
The fault lies entirely with the drivers cheating by cutting corners jumping the kerbs and using the safety run off areas as part of the track.

 

[RevMaxPower]

I have no objection to run off areas due to the fact that not all racing on these circuits is done by professional racing drivers or in F1 cars with all their safety features.
Circuits have to be run as a business catering for all types of racing, all types of cars, motorcycles which do not share the F1 cars safety shell tub.
The fault lies entirely with the drivers cheating by cutting corners jumping the kerbs and using the safety run off areas as part of the track.

Exactly Sportsman, exactly... Which is why we usually see a bit more precision on the street circuits. Concrete walls can bite!

 

[FB]

...or the problem lies with the stewards not enforcing the requirement to keep all 4 wheels on the race track.

 

[MCLS]

Not consistently anyway

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

I still like the idea of a surface that slows the car down dramatically (which, after all, is what the much maligned gravel trap is designed to do. It was mainly the problems of:
a) the danger of 'digging in' and rolling, such as happened in a recent GP3 race at Istanbul, and
b) the possibility of taking off over a kerb and skipping right over the trap into the barrier, a la Schumacher at Stowe in 1999
that led to gravel going out of favour when placed too close to the track, and tarmac run-off areas becoming more prevalent.

Didn't someone post a comment on a similarly related thread a while back referring to the Paul Ricard circuit, which has a run-off surface that retards the car more than standard tarmac? Surely that sort of approach could be developed to provide a surface which slows cars down enough for safety reasons without damaging the car too much, at the same time as being a deterrent to going off line? Any driver who repeatedly over-used the run-off area at a chicane, for instance, might expect to pay a penalty of increased tyre wear, which should encourage them to stay between the white lines more often.

 

[sportsman]

I did.

http://www.circuitpaulricard.com/details-p-156.html

 

[RevMaxPower]

I still like the idea of a surface that slows the car down dramatically (which, after all, is what the much maligned gravel trap is designed to do. It was mainly the problems of:
a) the danger of 'digging in' and rolling, such as happened in a recent GP3 race at Istanbul, and
b) the possibility of taking off over a kerb and skipping right over the trap into the barrier, a la Schumacher at Stowe in 1999
that led to gravel going out of favour when placed too close to the track, and tarmac run-off areas becoming more prevalent.

Didn't someone post a comment on a similarly related thread a while back referring to the Paul Ricard circuit, which has a run-off surface that retards the car more than standard tarmac? Surely that sort of approach could be developed to provide a surface which slows cars down enough for safety reasons without damaging the car too much, at the same time as being a deterrent to going off line? Any driver who repeatedly over-used the run-off area at a chicane, for instance, might expect to pay a penalty of increased tyre wear, which should encourage them to stay between the white lines more often.

Brilliant solution - should help keep 'em honest!

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

Thanks Sportsman!
I've no idea just how abrasive those run-off surfaces are, but I'm sure the principle could be developed. One thing is certain; anything has to be better than Astroturf.

 

[sobriety]

One thing is certain; anything has to be better than Astroturf.

Unless they soak the Astroturf before each session, that would be carnage!

 

[sportsman]

Thanks Sportsman!
I've no idea just how abrasive those run-off surfaces are, but I'm sure the principle could be developed. One thing is certain; anything has to be better than Astroturf.

They are very abrasive indeed.If you do get on them you normally need a tyre change within a couple of laps.I have driven this track and experienced that first hand.
BTW Paul Ricard is owned by none other than Bernard Charles Ecclestone.
And it does indeed have a sprinkler system.

 

[F1Yorkshire]

I've just been looking at a compilation of last years crashes. From what I could tell the astroturf did nothing to prevent any of the crashes where a car was spinning, nor did it really cause an incident in dry conditions so why is it there?

As for run off's, yes they are necessary to slow the car down but looking at last years incidents, the only thing that does stop a car that has left the track is a tyre wall. The tarmac only forgives a drivers mistake, it does not help in slowing a car down when compared to a gravel run off.

Take away their safety nets and let the skill come back into keeping a car between the white lines!

If anyone wants to see the same footage I've embedded it below.

 

[sportsman]

...or the problem lies with the stewards not enforcing the requirement to keep all 4 wheels on the race track.

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/C30FA5AA9E36713DC125786B004EDCFC/$FILE/11.04.07_Annexe L_ 2011.pdf
c) Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of
doubt:
- the white lines defining the track edges are considered to
be part of the track but the kerbs are not, and
- a driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the
car remains in contact with the track.

Should a car leave the track for any reason, and without
prejudice to 2(d) below, the driver may rejoin. However, this
may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining
any advantage.
d) Repetition of serious mistakes or the appearance of a lack of
control over the car (such as leaving the track) will be reported
to the stewards of the meeting and may entail the imposition
of penalties up to and including the exclusion of any driver
concerned.
e) It is not permitted to drive any car unnecessarily slowly,
erratically or in a manner