Ferrari Gained From Silverstone Off-Throttle EBD Ban, Mercedes Biggest Loser

Mercedes lost out.Thats news to me.Mercedes were given dispensation to run their hot blown exhaust system.

Any pundit will tell you that McLaren lost out in relation to Ferrari at Silverstone.

I don't listen to pundits.I deal in facts.And the facts are as I posted.

What are the facts, again, good Sir?

One fact is that Mercedes engines weren't run at Silverstone in 'Valencia Spec'. Now they're going back to Valencia Spec in Germany and though to the end of '11.

The second fact was where Alonso and Massa (and Perez's Ferrari engined car) qualified in relation to Hamilton, Button, Rosberg and Schumacher. The qually gaps weren't small even adjusted for the conditions.

We'll see where Alonso, Massa, Perez, Kobayashi qualify in relation to Hamilton, Button, Rosberg and Schumacher at the Nurburgring.

This debate has been clearly won ... and it wasn't even close.

I said I'd wait til after Germany to make my next comment and Q2 and Q3 at Nurburgring fully confirmed the hypothesis.

At Silverstone, Alonso's lead Ferrari was within 1.5-tenths of Red Bull Pole man Webber's Q2 and Q3 times and, more importantly, Alonso's Ferrari was anywhere from a full 5-tenths to more than 1 second faster than the lead McLaren in Q2 and Q3. Not only was Alonso faster by that amount but their second driver, Massa, was 6- to 7-tenths faster in those two sessions as well.

[Let's pretend that Hamilton had 'issues' at Silverstone and is, on average, faster than Button. Data suggests that, on average, Hamilton is about 2 to 3 tenths faster than Button. So, even if Hamilton didn't have issues, he STILL would have been out-qualified - even by Ferrari's historically slower Number 2 driver in this pairing, Massa. The facts, however, are that Hamilton was even further away from Ferrari at Silverstone in Q2 and Q3...and those are the only facts we have available so speculating anything else is moot and would not be backed up by the hard data.]

Further, Ferrari's most competitive customer cars, Sauber, qualified well - in 8th and 12th...whilst Mercedes GP themselves (the 2nd most competitive Mercedes-engined car) qualified a sub par 9th and 13th. That's was an unusual relative occurence (Mercedes GP to Sauber) in the two or three races directly leading up to Silverstone.

In addition, Renault GP (the 2nd most competitive Renault-engined car) qualified a horrible 14th and 16th. That was their worst average qualifying of the year.

At Nurburgring, we're back to 'Valencia spec' levels on the OTEBD front...and guess what happens?

Suddenly the gap between Red Bull Pole man and the lead Ferrari is no longer as small (on average) in Q2 and Q3...but, most significantly (especially pertaining to this arguement), both the Ferraris are out-qualified by the lead McLaren. In BOTH Q2 and Q3, Hamilton put up faster times than the two Ferraris...so, it wasn't merely a 'lucky', 'one-off' lap in Q3 only.

Hamilton was 1.5-tenths and 6-tenths faster in Q2 than Alonso and Massa respectively...and then 3-tenths and 8-tenths faster in Q3 than Alonso and Massa respectively.

Button, the 2nd fastest McLaren driver, had 'issues' at Nurbugring...but inspite them, he still was slightly faster than Massa in Q2...and just 3-tenths slower than Massa in Q3. This was a much better comparative performance than what he (Button) was able to do against Massa at Silverstone.

Further, Ferrari's most competitive customer car (again, Sauber) qualified a miserable 15th and 18th...whilst Mercedes GP did much better compartively and were back to 'normal' pre-Silverstone levels in 6th and 10th.

In addition, Renault GP were also back to pre-Silverstone levels - at 9th and 11th.

These are HARD CORE facts which quite clearly illustrate that the Ferrari engine was the benificiary of the OTEBD ban...and the Mercedes engine, in particular, was the bigger loser.

If anyone can argue against that hypothesis, then let's hear it.
 
Well there you go then, Kudos to you Ray. Shall I just lock this thread now as discussion seems pointless?

Well, there was tons of discussion that Ferrari didn't benifit from the mid-season changing of the rules even though we argued that McLaren-Mercedes and Red Bull-Renault were the ones complaining on Friday and Saturday at Silverstone ... while Scuderia Ferrari were remaining unusually quiet. This was in the Jean Todt thread.

Here: http://cliptheapex.com/threads/jean-todt-a-poor-mans-max-a-joke.3274/

So, if anyone thinks otherwise, then let's hear it!

The premise of the OTEBD mid season ban was that the FIA was, once again, favouring what Ferrari wanted.

Is that in dispute? Yes or No?
 
Can I plead the 5th?

FB, Clip The Apex is a bonafide specialist site and, I believe, a respected site where facts over-ride biases mostly.

This thread ought to remain open as a matter of record because it clearly illustrates that there was an unusual changing of the goal posts mid-season which had the consequences of advantaging one engine manufacturer whilst disadvantaging two others, mainly Mercedes-Benz HPE and Renault Sport (the two engine manufacturers that complained at Silverstone).

Had Mercedes-Benz HPE and Renault Sport not complained, the FIA would have pushed through a mid-season changing of the rules for the benefit of Ferrari.

Clip The Apex - and it's members - should point these things out as a matter of record, frankly.

:)
 

FB

Not my cup of cake
Valued Member
Ray, I have no plans to close the thread I was simply being sarcastic. I don't think anyone would deny the argument you put forward, we've all seen the grid for tomorrow's race and it's fairly obvious what the effect of the EBD is for Red Bull, McLaren, Mercedes & Renault.

Thank you for the summary though :thumbsup:
 

Slyboogy

World Champion
Contributor
Ray I don't think it matters no more, we are back to the normal grid again...

Ferrari lose out, McLaren And Red Bull gain.
 

MCLS

Anti F1 fan
Valued Member
The works Ferrari didn't exactly lose out though, their gap to Red Bull is pretty much the same it was, just Mclaren/Hamilton got closer to Red Bull.
 

Slyboogy

World Champion
Contributor
Beg to differ...bit of a gap to the red bulls, from 3rd-4th and only a tenth off in silverstone, now 4th and 5th 4-5tenths off...

Not only did the works team lose out, Sauber and Toro Rosso did did aswell.
 

MCLS

Anti F1 fan
Valued Member
Alonso was 2 tenths behind Vettel and 4 tenths behind Webber. Massa was half a second further back but was running out of option tyres.
 

Slyboogy

World Champion
Contributor
4 tenths is a lot...I would admit 2 tenths isn't much of a difference from a tenth and a half but you always compare to the top car, which today was Webber.
 

MCLS

Anti F1 fan
Valued Member
But you can't really make a valid comparison until tomorrow, for all we know Alonso might make a great start and lead the race to victory, it's doubtful but you never know. A race distance will give a full and certain idea of who has benefited from the return of the EBD and who hasn't,
 
Ray I don't think it matters no more, we are back to the normal grid again...

Ferrari lose out, McLaren And Red Bull gain.

It don't matter no more 'cause the FIA actually bent (or, to be more correct, 're-bent') after Mercedes-Benz HPE and Renault Sport - along with leading proponents McLaren and Red Bull - screamed on top of their lungs and even (in one case) allegedly threatened a Law Suit against the FIA for moving the goal posts mid-season!

Imagine if they hadn't screamed and shouted and threatened law suits?!?!

The FIA would then have successfully pushed Ferrari's agenda down McLaren, Mercedes GP, Renault and Red Bull's throats!

Shameful!

But you can't really make a valid comparison until tomorrow...

But a full race distance is actually less of a valid comparison because it takes too many variables into account.

Q2 and Q3 are the most valid comparision because everyone is on the same tyre and fuel and at their absolute fastest, especially Q3.

In the race, one team could short fuel in anticipation of a slower race based on it being wet for longer like McLaren did at Silverstone. McLaren bet it would be wet for longer and thus used less fuel...and got into trouble when it dried out sooner than they imagined. That's an example of a variable you get in a race that you don't get in Q2 and Q3 especially...and Slyboogy has a very good point too:
I was making a qualifying comparison as the engine mapping helps the qualifying perfomance rather than the race.
 

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff Member
The works Ferrari didn't exactly lose out though, their gap to Red Bull is pretty much the same it was, just Mclaren/Hamilton got closer to Red Bull.
Beg to differ...bit of a gap to the red bulls, from 3rd-4th and only a tenth off in silverstone, now 4th and 5th 4-5tenths off...

Not only did the works team lose out, Sauber and Toro Rosso did did aswell.
Perhaps this helps?
http://cliptheapex.com/threads/2011-relative-qualifying-pace.2411/
 

Sarinaide

Banned
Well was anyone really surprised at how "race to race" Ferrari went from really quick and stable to hanging in there. Some say the colder conditions were the cause, others say the EBD effect, I tend to split the two and say that it is as it was McLaren and Red Bull fastest for differing reasons, with Ferrari filling in inbetween neither fast nor slow, just metronomical and efficiant without being truely hair raising.

I will still reserve my judgment on whether or not Ferrari actually have closed the gap, as the results over the weekend still suggest the gap between the teams.
 
Well, clearly the reinstatement of the old OTEBD regs helped McLaren as did Hamilton being 'perfect' in Q3 and the Grand Prix.

Add to that Alonso not being as 'perfect' and you get a McLaren victory.

Alonso made an error where he let Vettel by.(which cost him some time)..and then Hamilton just mugged Alonso for the leadership of the race. Alonso certainly lost the win when Hamilton over-took him around the outside of Turn 2.

If the OTEBD levels were at Silverstone levels, i'm afraid Hamilton wouldn't have won this race.
 
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