Budgetcapgate

[teabagyokel]

What should the FIA do to assure that F1 exists next year. Some of you may want to take this a little more seriously than others so the poll reflects that!

 

[Brogan]

I've gone for the £100 million cap option as I feel £50 million is too big a jump from the current unlimited budget.

Capping it at £100 million would give all the current teams time to start downsizing and preparing for the next cap a year later which could be £50 million.
All those teams waiting to join F1 would just have to wait another year or try and compete now on whatever budget they can afford (up to the £100m cap)

I'm sure there are just as many issues with that approach as there are with going straight in with a low cap.

 

[Muddytalker]

I've gone for the £100 million cap option as I feel £50 million is too big a jump from the current unlimited budget.

Capping it at £100 million would give all the current teams time to start downsizing and preparing for the next cap a year later which could be £50 million.
All those teams waiting to join F1 would just have to wait another year or try and compete now on whatever budget they can afford (up to the £100m cap)

I'm sure there are just as many issues with that approach as there are with going straight in with a low cap.

I went for the £50M cap. (I'd prefer a structured reduction over 3 years to the £40M, but that's not on the list)

To be honest, I don't see the staffing/downsizing as a stumbling block.

Drivers, Team Managers, chief designers and technical directors aside, are the majority of F1 staff going to be on such massive wages? Even if the average salary of this group was as much as £50K, then losing 100 only saves £5m a year. (It then follows that you'd have to lose 1000 of these people to lower your budget from £100M to £50M, and we know that no F1 team employs 1000 people.) So the big spending reductions aren't going to come from wages/staff, which weakens the team's arguments of not being able to reduce spending because it will create unemployment.

More likely, the reduction is to come from teams' not spending multiples of a persons salary in researching 15 different wing profiles, in order to gain 0.1s over a lap at a particular circuit, and for that wing never to be raced again. This is the kind of excessive spending that needs to be curbed, but to encourage that the FIA have to open up the rules some more.

 

[Brogan]

I posted this in another thread but it's still relevant so I'll paste it here.
It was originally written when there was talk of a 2 tier championsip

My brother was talking with an ex-McLaren employee this morning who is still in regular contact with people who still work at McLaren.
He said McLaren and Ferrari will never be able to work to a budget cap as their organisations aren't set up for it.

They'd have to get rid of say 50% of the workforce but then all the departments/sites, etc. wouldn't be able to function on such a low level of staff.
It would take them years to gradually downsize but of course that's not an option as they'd be competing as a "non budget cap" team during that process and would be seriously disadvantaged.
So for new/smaller teams it's fine but for the big 2 there is no way they could do it.

The other issue is advertisement.
Apparently Brawn have offered the whole car to Virgin for £30m as far as sponsorship is concerned.
This turns the F1 corporate sponsorship system on its head as there's no way the likes of Ferrari and McLaren can continue to charge £5m for the left corner of the front wing.

So I do think the 2 or 3 big teams will have trouble adjusting in 1 season.
I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

 

[McZiderRed]

I heard on this afternoons practice commentary, that the FIA spilt the beans on Ferrari having a veto on technical issues, on top of their monetary favouritism... The fact that it was the FIA leaking that nugget of info, obviously implies they're trying to split FOTA's unity. To stop any more silly goings on & childishness, I vote to hand full control to the Clip The Apex Panel, with immediate affect. We'll get this sport in shape...

Failing that, I think the most likely outcome will be a compromise which will probably result in the £100M scenario, or something similar. All the current teams will stay and a possible further reduction in the following years will see new teams join. Assuming nothing else happens in the meantime that's spanner shaped...

 

[FB]

Just had a little browse around on the net and the accepted wisdom is that a No.2 mechanic gets £30 to £45K, more senior technicians £45 to £60K and a team manager about £90k (from Yahoo answers & Louise Goodman's interview with Andy Stevenson of Force India) . You would assume the lower end engineers running the wind tunnel and CFD fall into the senior technician category.

Perhaps this is a way of Max controll the vast salaries the top boys pay themselves? Ross Brawn is reputed to be on £5 Million a year, Adrian Newey £2 Million and wasn't Ron dennis one of the highest paid CEO's in the UK although I suppose McLaren is more than just the F1 team (the assistant who sued him recently was on £32K a year).

So if McLaren have 700 employees and 350 of them earn and average of £40K thats £14 million. If the remainder of the staff earn double that we are at £42 million (ignoring the senior managers pay). Max's £40 million budget is blown before you even buy a wheel nut so you can see why these teams are so opposed, even £100 million would be tough to get down to from the current level of spending.

 

[teabagyokel]

What is McLaren's position on the whole scenario? I think they've been very quiet on this issue, they've not been shooting their mouths off like Ferrari, Red Bull and Toyota about quitting F1. Maybe they don't want to get drawn in to another fight with the FIA but they seem to have taken neither side at any rate.

If F1 is left with McLaren, Brawn, Force India and Williams then Max might have just achieved his single-engine formula by accident! [Mercedes]

I think that at least those 4, and another couple of applications will be off to the FIA on 29[sup]th[/sup] May. I personally don't care if Ferrari's are amongst them. (and were our worst fears not realised by the technical veto they've had - explains massdampergate somewhat doesn't it?)

La Féderation is attempting to put across how much they've helped Ferrari in the past in order that Ferrari will think "Hey, they'vea helped us, why do we nota give them a bita help back now". However, at the moment it looks like di Montezemelo wouldn't let Max into his track-side ice-cream kitchen! (Why have they got one? Is it in Monaco? Is this why the big teams need big garages?")

 

[Muddytalker]

Just had a little browse around on the net and the accepted wisdom is that a No.2 mechanic gets £30 to £45K, more senior technicians £45 to £60K and a team manager about £90k (from Yahoo answers & Louise Goodman's interview with Andy Stevenson of Force India) . You would assume the lower end engineers running the wind tunnel and CFD fall into the senior technician category.

Perhaps this is a way of Max controll the vast salaries the top boys pay themselves? Ross Brawn is reputed to be on £5 Million a year, Adrian Newey £2 Million and wasn't Ron dennis one of the highest paid CEO's in the UK although I suppose McLaren is more than just the F1 team (the assistant who sued him recently was on £32K a year).

So if McLaren have 700 employees and 350 of them earn and average of £40K thats £14 million. If the remainder of the staff earn double that we are at £42 million (ignoring the senior managers pay). Max's £40 million budget is blown before you even buy a wheel nut so you can see why these teams are so opposed, even £100 million would be tough to get down to from the current level of spending.

Interesting figures, and thanks FB, but as you say McLaren is more than the F1 team. Not all 700 will be working on two racing cars. If they are, then F1 has gone seriously wrong. Even half that is too much (in my armchair enthusiast opinion), but because one team does it, they all follow. So it becomes one big corporate gravy boat.
Max is going about this very ham-fisted, but I can see what he's getting at.

 

[bogaTYR]

just from the top of my mind...

honda had 4 windtunnels available 24/7, bmw had a supercomputer available 24/7, ferrari had 2 circuits for private testing. and i am sure most teams had facilities more or less like that, add to that the engineering costs. i mean, in 2007 alone the costs of honda F1 went up by 22%! but that was presumably cos honda paid for super aguri's expenses too.

the mind boggles..

 

[Galahad]

...and incredibly, it seems that all ten teams are still singing from the same hymn sheet:

http://pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news ... t_id=37970

(thanks boga for posting this link in the other place)

If true, this surely ups the ante considerably. To get the likes of Force India, Williams and Brawn on side has surprised me to say the least.

FIA/FOM cannot now refuse to move on this issue, I'd suggest. How can Bernie sell a category with a grid of new teams (only seven serious, according to Max) without any established fanbase and a very doubtful driving roster?

Is Luca now in a position to play hardball and kick the budget cap out into the long grass?

 

[Brogan]

Wow! This is an interesting development.

I'm even more surprised the teams are with Ferrari considering the juicy revelation that the FIA released with regards to Ferrari's veto.

Surely this means a new era for F1 with the teams dictating terms rather than Bernie and the FIA?