Grand Prix 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

One of the biggest factors to shape the way humanity has interacted in the 20th and 21st centuries is Oil. Wars have been fought over it, alliances made and broken, blind eyes turned to shocking human rights abuses in one country while sanctions and threats of invasion are given to another because of the supply.

It’s hard to imagine now but for around 400 years before this, it wasn’t oil that brought misery to many but sugar.

Prior to the 16th century sugar was seen as a valuable spice and something to only grace the tables of the very rich. As methods of refinement improved so the amount of sugar that could be extracted from the cane rapidly increased and soon, the cost of sugar fell.

It was the Portuguese who first introduced sugar into Brazil and by the mid-16th century there were thousands of sugar plantations along the Brazilian coastline. To maximise production and minimise costs, a large amount of cheap labour was required to work these plantations and in 1526, the first slave ships departed West Africa for Brazil. This set-in motion a human trade that by the eventual abolition of slavery, it is estimated somewhere between 11 and 20 million souls were transported across the Atlantic.

I know what you’re thinking. What the Tate and Lyle has all this got to do with Formula 1 ??

Well, in 1959 in Sao Paulo, Brazil, a company was formed that would go on to be the world’s largest exporter of sugar and ethanol products. Employing 11000 people and producing a crop of over 70 million tons of sugar cane per year. The name of that company is Copersucar.

In 1974, Wilson Fittipaldi, the brother of the 1972 F1 world drivers champion, Emerson, decided he was going to establish his own F1 team and that effort would be entirely based in Brazil. With a Brazilian designer, parts being manufactured by the Brazilian aircraft manufacturer Embraer; who also donated time in their wind tunnel; and with funding from Copersucar, this was to be a truly homegrown effort.

While driving for his new team, McLaren, Emerson acted as a consultant for his brothers fledgling outfit, something that would be unimaginable today. The new team first turned out ready for the start of the 1975 season but, with only a single car and running Wilson behind the wheel, results were hard to come by. Running 3 different chassis to try and find a working aero package, the season yielded 2 failures to qualify and no points.

For the 1976 season, the team would get a major boost. In a move that shocked F1, including McLaren, the team he was driving for, Emerson quit to join Wilson and state to the world that Fittipaldi would, in a few short years, produce a team that would make Brazil proud.

The teams results gradually improved, 3 points in 1976, 11 in 77 and 17 in 1978 including a genuinely competitive run to 2nd place at that years Brazilian GP. Sadly, for the team, that season marked the high point. With ground effect now ruling chassis design and despite the fact that the team had relocated to the UK to be closer to their gearbox and engine suppliers, they couldn't find the breakthrough needed to push on. Copersucar pulled out at the end of 1979 and, despite taking another podium for the team in 1980, Emerson walked away at the end of that year.

Having hired a young Finn named Keke Rosberg to partner Emerson for 1980, the team were at least able to run two cars for a full season for the first time. Keke rewarded the team by scoring a 3rd place on his debut.

The team struggled on through to the end of 1982 but, despite having a car in production for 1983, Emerson and Wilson were unable to raise the funds to continue for another season and the team closed its doors.

1983 wasn’t all bad for Brazil however, while Nelson Piquet was busy winning his second world title for Brabham, a young Brazilian driver brought home the British Formula Three Championship for West Surrey Racing. His name was Ayrton Senna Da Silva, but that’s another story.

Enjoy the race.
 

FB

Not my cup of cake
Valued Member
Vettel had sensor problems on his car. This is what affected his car on the dummy grid and made him so slow in the race.
 

RasputinLives

Leave me alone I'm on Smoko
Contributor
Again I'll point out Kimi couldn't overtake Bottas when he was a second off the pace which not only held up his team mate but allowed Ricciardo to get in the game. Being as others in cars with less grunt were flying past him I believe Kimi should have done better.

Not the first time in the last few years I've got the distinct impression that Kimi's overtaking skills come and go.
 

Il_leone

Champion Elect
RasputinLives Everyone can see that except Arrivabene because Kimi is his best mate (and Vettel - who wanted a not so competitive teammate . I am looking forward to LeClerc getting into the mix and maybe teach Max a few manners
 

F1Brits_90

Champion Elect
Publius Cornelius Scipio

Yeah ocon legally can overtake & unlap himself. max couldve done things better in hindsight. If they were for position being on same lap then this because a completely different issue. I would say max shouldve gave room, But this for me doesnt come under rules & regulations it more comes under the unwritten sportsmanship code. like football - giving the ball back after they kicked it out, Snooker - calling fouls on themselves & Cricket- if you hit it you walk before the umpire decision

Yes he can unlap himself. But anyone under any race series you respect & give the leader of the race a wide berth you make sure it's as risk free as possible if you do make a move. As its not your race to interfere So to throw a risky punt up the inside on leader of the race when your 16th is not done thing & Max wouldnt have been expecting a lapped runner to do that ocon shouldve pulled out before he started breaking into T2. what was it achieving. In 4 laps max wouldve reovertaken him. Rumours he was trying to impress the paddock by overtaking max
 
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Ruslan

Podium Finisher
Verstappen hit a backmarker while comfortably leading a race. Pretty bone-headed. I remember only one other driver in F1 history doing that more than once (A. Senna). I have no doubt that Verstappen will do it again.

The laws of physics apply no matter how great and important you think you are. You have to leave space for a car when you pass them.

In the end, Hamilton continues to show himself to be a more complete driver than the guys who names start with V. He earned that win even if he did not deserve it.

Next year may be very interesting if the Red Bulls are competitive. If I was Mercedes, I would replace Bottas with Ocon....just for the entertainment value. This could become like professional wrestling.
 
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RasputinLives

Leave me alone I'm on Smoko
Contributor
Going to say something a bit controversial. I think Merc haven't taken Ocon on because he has a fiesty personality and they don't want to risk damaging this calm confident Hamilton they have in their arsenal right now. Bottas is laid back and never stirs the pot. Ocon would set his stall out to beat Hamilton (not saying he would) and it would upset the apple cart.

For what it's worth I believe that Ocon is the same level of talent as Verstappen and Leclerc, which is why it's disappointing Merc didn't commit like the other two top teams. There is all this talk of 2020 but drivers not racing every weekend get very quickly forgotten about no matter how good they are.

I think it may be the end for poor old Esteban which is a real shame for the sport and us the fans. I'd love to have seen Ocon and Verstappen go at it again in cars on the same level.
 

F1Brits_90

Champion Elect
very true reminds me of oliver Rowland did brilliant things in F2 & FR3.5 really impressed. but he didnt managed to get on the gurd & unfortunately 2 more brits come in to overtake him In Russell & Norris. we all know way F1 is if Russell impresses at Williams like Leclerc at sauber. If bottas has another disappointing season then it will be Russell who is in pole position for that Mercedes seat
 

Angel

Race Winner
Contributor
Just a quick query, why if the crash was more Max's fault (as seems to be the consensus of opinon) did the stewards give Ocon and not Max the penalty for causing the crash?
 
Just a quick query, why if the crash was more Max's fault (as seems to be the consensus of opinon) did the stewards give Ocon and not Max the penalty for causing the crash?

we have discussed that many times, penalties are handed out on the basis of who was involved, try to put it this way: do you think that if it was Vettel who cut across Ocon after Ocon had earned the right to be in that position (when the exited Turn 1 Ocon was both slightly ahead of Max as well as on the racing line) Ocon would be punished? Or do you think that the stewards would punish Vettel because he didn't leave the mandatory space to Ocon?
 

Ruslan

Podium Finisher
Just a quick query, why if the crash was more Max's fault (as seems to be the consensus of opinon) did the stewards give Ocon and not Max the penalty for causing the crash?
I am mystified by this stewarding decision. But.....actually it is irrelevant whose fault it was. Max was comfortably leading the race and he got into an entirely unnecessary conflict with a backmarker. All he had to do was leave space going through the second corner...and he would have won the race.
 
Publius Cornelius Scipio

Yeah ocon legally can overtake & unlap himself. max couldve done things better in hindsight. If they were for position being on same lap then this because a completely different issue. I would say max shouldve gave room, But this for me doesnt come under rules & regulations it more comes under the unwritten sportsmanship code. like football - giving the ball back after they kicked it out, Snooker - calling fouls on themselves & Cricket- if you hit it you walk before the umpire decision

Yes he can unlap himself. But anyone under any race series you respect & give the leader of the race a wide berth you make sure it's as risk free as possible if you do make a move. As its not your race to interfere So to throw a risky punt up the inside on leader of the race when your 16th is not done thing & Max wouldnt have been expecting a lapped runner to do that ocon shouldve pulled out before he started breaking into T2. what was it achieving. In 4 laps max wouldve reovertaken him. Rumours he was trying to impress the paddock by overtaking max

it's not uncommon that a driver unlaps himself, in sports car racing it happens all the time, it's not an insult to the leader of the race, it's just a matter of fact, that's how things work, if a driver is faster what's the problem if he tries to unlap himself?

Your point reminds me of what Fisichella told last Sunday at Sky Italia where he was of the pundits together with Ivan Capelli and Jarno Trulli. Capelli saw no problem in what happened, Trulli was the opinion that once a driver is lapped he should be forced to retire, Fisichella said that what Ocon did was disrespectful. Then Ivan Capelli asked hima very simple question, he asked him "Giancarlo what do you normally do when you race for Ferrari in sport cars when you are leading the race and a faster backmarker wants to unlap himself?". Fisichella's answer was great: "I let him through trying to avoid any issue because I've got nothing to gain from racing him", and that's the whole point of this issue. Every sensible driver in such a situation doesn't race a backmarker who wants to unlap himself, MAx did and I'm sure that next time he won't
 
I am mystified by this stewarding decision. But.....actually it is irrelevant whose fault it was. Max was comfortably leading the race and he got into an entirely unnecessary conflict with a backmarker. All he had to do was leave space going through the second corner...and he would have won the race.

also he would have passed Ocon once again going into turn 3 thanks to the DRS and waved blue flags. Other than that Max drove a sterling race but IMHO he made a big mistake with Ocon
 

F1Brits_90

Champion Elect
Screenshot_20181113-211221.jpg
 

Il_leone

Champion Elect
I think Bottas is dead man walking at Mercedes at the moment and the only thing that can save him is if he has a Rosberg like season ala 2016 to ward off the critics.

It is interesting to hear now that the reason that Ocon has not been promoted is because of his competitive rivalry with Perez which might worry Hamilton akin to the situation that Lewis was in at Mclaren

I think the history between the two (Ocon and Verstappen) is beginning to excite people now about the future of F1 . As for Esteban's position at Merc with Wehrlein out of the picture he is very much Mercedes' future although would Merc seriously putting him in the same car as Verstappen?

Russell is 2 years away at least from being promoted to the main team so unless Vandoorne becomes a shock contender to return with Merc after 1 stellar season in FE so Ocon needs to impress still to warrant the seat
 

Angel

Race Winner
Contributor
I am mystified by this stewarding decision. But.....actually it is irrelevant whose fault it was. Max was comfortably leading the race and he got into an entirely unnecessary conflict with a backmarker. All he had to do was leave space going through the second corner...and he would have won the race.

I understand what Publius Cornelius Scipio is saying but it doesn't reflect well on F1 if that is the case does it? So effectively it doesn't matter so much what you do, it's who you are that matters most, that's so wrong on so many levels.

Max should have acted differently, he was a fool in many ways and he could have been a lot smarter in that moment, that is true, but in the heat of a race it's a whole other thing, I know that. His reaction to Ocon after the race shows he went to the same charm school his father did as well which also makes me think less well of him. His reponse to why he shoved Ocon the way he did is because apparently 'Ocon was smiling at him'. If he allows his temper to get the better of him like that too often I think he's in for a lot of trouble in the future and frankly it will serve him right too. That's how I see it anyway.
 

Slyboogy

World Champion
Contributor
Again I'll point out Kimi couldn't overtake Bottas when he was a second off the pace which not only held up his team mate but allowed Ricciardo to get in the game. Being as others in cars with less grunt were flying past him I believe Kimi should have done better.

Not the first time in the last few years I've got the distinct impression that Kimi's overtaking skills come and go.

The Ferraris was easily overtaken by the Red Bulls as Ferrari had to add more downforce and to prevent high tyre wear. Neither Ferrari despite being in 4 tenths within the car infront with DRS couldn't get anywhere near alongside the Red Bull or Mercedes. Their straight line speed was hampered by the set up change from Friday to Saturday that even the Red Bulls were passing them before the end of the straight.

Kimi did the best he could with a no man's land strategy and with a hampered set up.
 

RasputinLives

Leave me alone I'm on Smoko
Contributor
I'm pretty sure Kimi did do the best he could which is what worries me. Previously I've always thought he could do better if he could just be bothered to try. Now days I just don't think he's on pace of others.

Just my view like.
 

F1Brits_90

Champion Elect
He isn't the driver he was but that to be expected he's 39 95% of sportsmen decline at that age But as i saying if Kimi Raikkonen makes the podium in abu Dhabi. Which he probably won't as it rosewater LOL he will have his most successful season in terms of podiums. after the summer break he has matched vettel. great win in USA

but you wonder if its vettel level gone down or Kimi come up
 

Ruslan

Podium Finisher
I understand what Publius Cornelius Scipio is saying but it doesn't reflect well on F1 if that is the case does it? So effectively it doesn't matter so much what you do, it's who you are that matters most, that's so wrong on so many levels.

Well, I am not sure I buy into all the bias and conspiracy theories banded about in F1. On the other hand, Scipio has a lot of direct experience with that world, while I have none. Still, I remain ambivalent about how accurate all these claims of bias are.

Max should have acted differently, he was a fool in many ways and he could have been a lot smarter in that moment, that is true, but in the heat of a race it's a whole other thing, I know that. His reaction to Ocon after the race shows he went to the same charm school his father did as well which also makes me think less well of him. His reponse to why he shoved Ocon the way he did is because apparently 'Ocon was smiling at him'. If he allows his temper to get the better of him like that too often I think he's in for a lot of trouble in the future and frankly it will serve him right too. That's how I see it anyway.

I like Ocon....a lot. He does smile enough even as he is doing outrageous stuff like knocking his teammate off the track. He is not the cleanest driver out there by far.
 
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