Grand Prix 2011 Monaco Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Well how about that then, in a similar case in 2010 the doom and gloom merchants have vanished with a cracking grand prix in Spain. With the champagne still flowing we move on to Monaco a week later.

Mclaren will be a lot happier after running Red Bull all the way to the finish at a circuit where Red Bull normally run out of sight and could be favourites going into the Monaco race. Red Bull, however, will be the team to beat after 4 wins out of 5 races with Vettel looking unbeatable at the front but Spain showed that he wouldn't have it all his own way with Hamilton chasing him all the way to the end, even if Vettel extended his ever growing lead at the top of the championship

Ferrari seemed to have dropped back again after a superb start in Spain and eventually Alonso wound up 5th. But no doubt the Scuderia will be challenging the Mclarens and Red Bulls come the Grand Prix on Sunday. Felipe Massa's early season promise has vanished and he's back to his 2010 level and his seat will be back under scrutiny if he continues this lack of speed

Michael Schumacher will have reason to be optimistic after a strong race, beating his team mate and finishing a strong 6th as he best of the rest behind the Ferraris,Mclarens and Red Bulls. Mercedes no doubt have become the 4th fastest team over Renault who are now fighting over the lower points with Sauber and Force India.

However the big question on everyones lips will be DRS which didnt help overtaking in Spain (which is better) but more importantly where it will be placed on a circuit where straight track is at a premium so safety is a concern.

HRT continue to improve and are taking the fight to Virgin which for them is a massive achievement and its not long before they overtake them while Team lotus's optimism on Saturday didn't replicate on Sunday with a DNF for Kovalainen. But on a track where they would be weak, to get into Q2 is a massive achievement.

Hope seems to have returned to F1 after a surprisingly exciting race in Spain and it seems as if the feared Red Bull domination has been alleviated by the charging Mclarens and while Monaco is never a classic due to the nature of the track, it's certainly a spectacle

For Galahad's superb write up see here http://cliptheapex.com/pages/circuit-de-monaco/

 

[Jen]

Vettel would have won due to his SUPREME tyre management

(well I do think that either Vettel or Alonso would have won)

Don't be so shy in coming forward Sly!

The thing is we were denied the opportunity to actually see the result - so in theory any of those three 'could' have won.

 

[Slyboogy]

I think that was Alonso's race without the second flag. It just depends if those tyres fell off or not at the predicted point and I'm afraid the driver isn't able to control that, if they went Vettel would have been powerless. It seems very car dependant rather than driver this year on the tyre management front.

Well, we did see 10 cars in a line before the crash due to it being hard to overtake and a few cars on worn tyres...there where only 6 laps left after the restart, I think the tyres would have hung on, but I am sure that Alonso would certainly have done a do or die move, same can't be said for Button

(I was only joking about Vettel's supreme tyre management)

 

[Slyboogy]

Don't be so shy in coming forward Sly!

The thing is we were denied the opportunity to actually see the result - so in theory any of those three 'could' have won.

In theory any one of the top 6 could have won as they weren't lapped

 

[Hamberg]

but I am sure that Alonso would certainly have done a do or die move, same can't be said for Button

Fair point. But yes I agree, If Button was going to have a go then he'd left it far too late but unfortunately it looked as though he was waiting for some kind of incident. He can do it but perhaps took the safe podium option.

 

[Jen]

In theory any one of the top 6 could have won as they weren't lapped

I think you're stretching it there Sly, but who knows

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Ray, as much as I agree with you that Vettel deserved 10 and showed coolness and maturity under pressure, but Button needed 3 stops due to his team putting him on super softs in his second stint, WHICH Vettel and Red Bull where originally going to do this strategy...Now Ray, don't hit back at me with the same points about Button not managing his tyres and how Vettel did...

Hehe, I won't "hit back" at you with the tyre management point. I will however say that Vettel pulled out 4 seconds on the first stint and had his stop not been delayed by 5 seconds, he would have come out in front of Button and maintained his lead and track position.

What would Button have done then? Driven right through Vettel and pulled away? The only reason why Button pulled away is because RBR handed track position to him on a Silver Plate. That gifted lead, coupled with his Super-Softs V Vettel's Softs, helped him pull away. If Vettel had his regular planned stop, he would have been ahead and on the same tyre as Button and, as a result, the race would have continued Vettel 1 - Button 2 on exact same tyres.

You don't see that?

OK, so you've addressed the 'first' race - and made a brave stab at the second part - so what are your perceptions on what might have happened if there had been no red flag?

My perceptions usually preceed Martin Brundle's by a day or two but Brundle said they would have finished that way because Vettel was driving accordingly. Brundle said this on the BBC website in his piece a day after reflecting upon the race.

 

[Slyboogy]

I think you're stretching it there Sly, but who knows

Well in "theory" anything can happen, that's all I was saying

But I know what you mean, sorry, I just like being awkward

 

[Slyboogy]

You don't see that?

I do see that as you have pointed that out endlessly...I even said I agreed with you.

Why don't you simply just say, that if you talk about Button having bad luck, the same you could say for Vettel for his pitstop, there, easy.

But I guess it's easier said than done eh?

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

if you talk about Button having bad luck, the same you could say for Vettel for his pitstop

Ok. If you talk about Button having bad luck, then you have to say the same for Vettel's pitstop. How's that Super Sly?

 

[Slyboogy]

He's got the hang of it guys!

I guess you can teach an old dog new tricks

(Sorry Ray no offence intended, we are all old chaps, from 0-100, we are all something years "old" eh?)

 

[The Artist.....]

No-FIAt, with all due respect, If Button was given a 10 for mismanaging his Super-Softs (he cooked and ate them up!), not capitalizing on RBR's pit error which lost Vettel the lead (through no fault of his own) and, then, losing a win that was within the grasp of a car with race-winning pace, then why should Vettel get anything lower for making up for his team costing him 5 seconds and track position?

If anything it's Button who doesn't deserve a 10. Button threw away a win by mismanaging his tyres and didn't even finish 2nd!

Sorry, where's your evidence that Button "cooked" his tyres.

From what I could see, the McLaren pit were using an aggressive strategy.

 

[Jen]

My perceptions usually preceed Martin Brundle's by a day or two but Brundle said they would have finished that way because Vettel was driving accordingly. Brundle said this on the BBC website in his piece a day after reflecting upon the race.

So all we need to do is ask you and forget about watching the race - great I have my Sundays back - I know that's not what you meant but either way it's a tad presumptuous to assume that you are better than the commentators in reaching a conclusion, which at best is only a guess.

 

[Slyboogy]

So all we need to do is ask you and forget about watching the race - great I have my Sundays back - I know that's not what you meant but either way it's a tad presumptuous to assume that you are better than the commentators in reaching a conclusion, which at best is only a guess.

Have no fear! Ray is here!

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Sorry, where's your evidence that Button "cooked" his tyres.

From what I could see, the McLaren pit were using an aggressive strategy.

Um...because Button admitted so? Because Button said his used up his tyres too much on Stint 1? http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2011/5/12119.html

You didn't read Martin Whitmarsh's comments that their car had "race-winning pace"? Three stopping was a losing strategy, not a winning one. They only decided to 3-Stop because of the alarming rate of degredation on the Super-Softs in stint 1 (when the car was heaviest) where Jenson was having a hard time keeping up with Vettel.

Not only did they ended up not winning, but they didn't even get 2nd! Ouch*!

* I orginally said "Pathetic"...but I changed it after Sly's criticsm (i'm still figuring my way around here after being tainted by 606).

 

[Slyboogy]

Ray, I do agree with you...many times, I usually go through your posts and think this deserves a "like" but then some way you find a way to not make me like it

You use strong words, like in that post above "pathetic" is it really pathetic? It's a bit harsh.

But I will give you a like anyway since one word shouldn't ruin a post, plus I am in a good mood

 

[teabagyokel]

Um...because Button admitted so? Because Button said his used up his tyres too much on Stint 2?

To be fair to him, Jenson Button is often the first to blame himself when something goes wrong. But I think discussion of good and bad strategies is a little difficult. In a race such as Sunday, you cannot talk of "good" and "bad" strategies so much as strategies which worked or did not work because of the red flag!

There are a million and one different things which could have happened in the last 10 laps had the Petiltguersutil crash hadn't happened, so lets not speculate! All you can say is even 10 laps short, Vettel did better on the tyres than anyone expected. But he crossed the line first after 78 laps. It is all you need to do.

Therefore, I don't think it correct to overcriticise or overpraise Jenson Button, Sebastian Vettel or Fernando Alonso with regards to strategy, as I'm sure that in the pressure cooker environments of a strategist or even a commentator, the decisions which are so easy in hindsight may not appear so simple.

 

[The Artist.....]

Um...because Button admitted so? Because Button said his used up his tyres too much on Stint 1? http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2011/5/12119.html

You didn't read Martin Whitmarsh's comments that their car had "race-winning pace"? Three stopping was a losing strategy, not a winning one. They only decided to 3-Stop because of the alarming rate of degredation on the Super-Softs in stint 1 (when the car was heaviest) where Jenson was having a hard time keeping up with Vettel.

Ray, it's a case of taking things out of context....
".....But we went for the three-stop as I was struggling a little bit in the first stint with the rears and we thought we could probably jump Seb on the first stop, which we did."

So, JB stopped 1 lap earlier than Vettel, and ended up in front of him after the first stops! Also, "struggling a little with with the rears" is not the same as "burning tyres"..... If they'd put on the softs (As Vettel did), then they'd have won the race! Certainly, there's nothing to suggest that Button was "burning his tyres up" for the rest of the race!

Sorry, I just think that your post is a little full of hyperbole!

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Ray, it's a case of taking things out of context....".....But we went for the three-stop as I was struggling a little bit in the first stint with the rears and we thought we could probably jump Seb on the first stop, which we did."

So, JB stopped 1 lap earlier than Vettel, and ended up in front of him after the first stops!

But they only ended up ahead after the first stops because RBR's stop for Vettel was about 6 seconds too slow due to an error, not because of Button driving 6 seconds a lap faster than any mortal had ever lapped Monaco!

Vettel pulled out a 4 second lead up to the 1st Stop...He 'covered' Button's 'undercut' straight away...but the stop was 6 seconds too long and he was jumped...and ended up coming out 2 seconds behind Button.

Is that difficult to understand? McLaren didn't end up ahead of RBR after the first stops due to 'strategy' or 'blinding speed' or Vettel 'screwing up'. It was an error by RBR's pit crew. Why are people discounting the error that had nothing to do with McLaren, Button or Vettel?

 

[Fenderman]

 

[The Artist.....]

OK Ray... Let's just go with this for sake of argument:

Vettel's stop was 3.3 seconds slower than Button's (see here: http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1_media/Documents/mco-race-summary.pdf)

Vettel emerged from the pits between 3.2 and 3.3 seconds behind Button..... Even without the mistake, it would have been pretty nip and tuck between Button and Vettel!