Grand Prix 2011 Monaco Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

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The Enforcer

Wheel-to-wheel Maestro
Contributor
In my opinion, the reason Vettel isn't taking as much out of the tyres can predominantly be put down to the mechanical grip and downforce the Red Bull produces. If you look back at the last two races, his drive and momentum out of slow and medium speed corners is incredible and the car rarely looks unbalanced.

I also believe he benefits from leading from the front, as following a car from behind creates understeer which in turn overworks the compound.
 

Sarinaide

Banned
One thing is noticable, that is when a RB is behind traffic it is not all that hot (bear in mind that I am refering to similar tyres and age) they suffer like every other car in loss of downforce (Webber has driven a lot behind Alonso and Button to name a few this year, also Vettel didn't get close in Spain to getting past Alonso other than failed ambitious strategy by Ferrari.

They are a great team but they are not unbeatable, easier said than done it appears.
 

jez101

Bookies drive nice cars because of people like me
Contributor
I was wondering whether the tyres acted like the supersofts whereby you could get more laps out of them if you took it easy for a bit. Maybe this is the reason Vettel still had any tyres left at thast point, simply due to the safety car?:thinking:
You might well be right, mate. I hadn't thought of that but no doubt the SC cooled Vettel's tyres off and that might have been why he could go to the end.

In my opinion, the reason Vettel isn't taking as much out of the tyres can predominantly be put down to the mechanical grip and downforce the Red Bull produces. If you look back at the last two races, his drive and momentum out of slow and medium speed corners is incredible and the car rarely looks unbalanced.

I also believe he benefits from leading from the front, as following a car from behind creates understeer which in turn overworks the compound.
Agree with that too! :thumbsup:
 

The Enforcer

Wheel-to-wheel Maestro
Contributor
For anyone that's interested I'll be putting together an Article on the 'black art' of tyres in the next few day's, let me know if you've got any specific questions and I'll try and include them.

(sorry for going off topic)
 

ecclestoned

Points Scorer
Contributor
Especially the fronts, he was understeering badly...

...and I disagree with Ray that Button screwed up. As I said before, I think he would have had a pistop in his pocket by lap 40 if it wasn't for the SC, which he lost due to chance (not some massive mistake by him or his team). Luck plays a part in any sport - that is what makes it unpredictable and therefore entertaining - on Sunday, the luck was flowing towards SV when his team's mistake went unpunished. He used his skill to make sure he made the most of it. but he was still lucky.
I disagree(respectfully) with Ray that Button screwed up,but also(as respectfully) with what you're saying.
I remember hearing Brundle say around lap 31(I'm lying, I checked thatLOL)it was looking good for Jenson since he was already leading 14 sec. and if he could get to 20/21 sec. he would have a pit stop for free in his pocket.
Those educated guesses by Brundle must be based on calculations on a BBC abacus,I suppose,since Button's lead in the previous laps was stabilising at best,if not decreasing, and a pit stop took some 25 sec.in real life.
He should have known that,since he had made the same mistake in the 1st pit stop round ,stating that Alonso would come out comfortably in front of Vettel,to then see him come out several sec. behind him.
Anyway,Button was called in on lap 33,leading Vettel by some 13 sec.and Alonso by some 16 sec.,anticipating a SC for Glock,which was the right visionary call ,albeit that the SC came out not for Glock but for Massa and a lap later.
That stop certainly wasn't disadvantaging Jenson,on the contrary,he could now comfortably lign up behind the 2 leaders on new shoes(pit stop in his pocket if you like).
The only problem Jenson still had was that he had to pit again for the softs,while Vettel and Alonso (behind him) already had them fitted to their cars.If Button wanted to win this race he had to jump Vettel,like his engineer was encouraging him to do,but he couldn't.
I don't believe for a second that Vettel was going to pit again(SC or not)unless he was able to run off in the distance and create a gap of more than 26 sec.
Balsy move indeed,pushing his luck to the extreme,but by pulling it off ,and there I must say I agree with Ray,he did a splendid job and words like awesome and ominous do indeed spring to mind.
And yet,I still feel we have been robbed of some extra excitement by that last SC and red flag,certainly since I read Nando was planning on making a move on Vettel even if it would have cost him a DNF.
I'm sure I'm not the only one here:twisted:
 

jez101

Bookies drive nice cars because of people like me
Contributor
I disagree(respectfully) with Ray that Button screwed up,but also(as respectfully) with what you're saying.
:goodday:

That stop certainly wasn't disadvantaging Jenson,on the contrary,he could now comfortably lign up behind the 2 leaders on new shoes(pit stop in his pocket if you like).
I think Alonso pitted under the SC and came out behind JB. Jenson ended up behind him when he stopped on lap 48, with this last set of options having been no use at all stuck behind Vettel.

The only problem Jenson still had was that he had to pit again for the softs,while Vettel and Alonso (behind him) already had them fitted to their cars.
If you are saying he should have taken the prime onto his car on lap 32, then with the benefit of hindsight, that might have been a good move but I don't know if he would have had the pace to challenge Vettel. Yes, he would have finished second, not third, but the gamble was that Vettel would stop when the SC came out, like Alonso did. When he didn't, all McLaren's plans went up in smoke.

If Button wanted to win this race he had to jump Vettel,like his engineer was encouraging him to do,but he couldn't.
I think he wanted to win the race but in the end, the circuit, a bit of luck and a bit of brilliance from Vettel (again...!) got in the way.
 

ecclestoned

Points Scorer
Contributor
:goodday:

I think Alonso pitted under the SC and came out behind JB. Jenson ended up behind him when he stopped on lap 48, with this last set of options having been no use at all stuck behind Vettel.
Button pitted on lap 33,came back on track behind Alonso,who then pitted on lap 35,being obstructed by Schumacher yet again,just like in 2006 on the same track:D
Not that I would like to quarrel about trifles really.
 

teabagyokel

#dejavu
Valued Member
Button pitted on lap 33,came back on track behind Alonso,who then pitted on lap 35,being obstructed by Schumacher yet again,just like in 2006 on the same track:D
This time he actually broke down, though! Karma?
I think McLaren are a little obsessed with anticipating the Safety Car, and that showed on Sunday!
 

no-FIAt-please

Champion Elect
Premium Contributor
Without all that bad luck (safety cars and red flags) Button would have won that race, I don't think anyone can deny that. And the only thing he had over Vettel was a 5 secondish faster pit stop, but regardless of this his pace was so fast he would have cleared this margin anyway. But it just so happend that lady luck to a shine to Red Bull this weekend.
 

no-FIAt-please

Champion Elect
Premium Contributor
Maldonado should have been a 9 at best as he wasn't totally blameless in his off.
Agree with this, not only should he accempt some of the responsibility for his coming together with Hamilton but he was weaving all the down to the start finish, must have done it at least 3 times and it was a lot less subtle that when Hamilton did in in China.
 
Without all that bad luck (safety cars and red flags) Button would have won that race... And the only thing he had over Vettel was a 5 secondish faster pit stop, but regardless of this his pace was so fast he would have cleared this margin anyway. But it just so happend that lady luck to a shine to Red Bull this weekend.
No, not really!

Had all pitstops and everything gone as normal, Vettel would have re-assumed his 4 second lead. In other words, Vettel would have covered off Button's effort to undercut him. In fact, Vettel did exactly that one lap after Button's stop. Didn't he? But it wasn't Vettel's fault that his team's delay cost him 5 extra seconds and, thus, the lead and track position.

To imply "5 secondish" wasn't critical is kinda silly when track position is everything at Monaco. In addition, why have a double standard for Button by suggesting 'ifs' and 'buts' ... but then discount Vettel's crew error. It's rather rich to have those types of double standards.

The bottom line is Button was a terrible tyre manager and needed 3 pitstops when Alonso did only 2 and Vettel and Kobayashi were on 1! I suppose we'll have to politely agree to disagree...but "if" Vettel had a normal stop, Button wouldn't have been able to over-take Vettel, let alone pull away.
 

Jen

Here be dragons.
Contributor
No, not really!

Had all pitstops and everything gone as normal, Vettel would have re-assumed his 4 second lead. In other words, Vettel would have covered off Button's effort to undercut him. In fact, Vettel did exactly that one lap after Button's stop. Didn't he? But it wasn't Vettel's fault that his team's delay cost him 5 extra seconds and, thus, the lead and track position.

To suggest "5 secondsish" isn't much is kinda silly when track position is everything at Monaco. In addition, why have a double standard for Button by saying 'if everything had gone normally' but then discount Vettel's crew error. It's rather rich to have those types of double standards.

The bottom line is Button was a terrible tyre manager and needed 3 pitstops when Alonso did only 2 and Vettel and Kobayashi were on 1!
Ray, we had two races - one before the red flag and one after - who knows how the first might have finished.
 
Ray, we had two races - one before the red flag and one after - who knows how the first might have finished.
Vettel was out to finish the race with 62 laps on Softs (Primes) and drove accordingly. Vettel's drive was measured and mature. Vettel deserves a 10 for Pole, for over-coming his teams error, for his coolness and maturity under pressure, for making his Primes last at least 56 laps, for stealing a win from right under McLaren's noses. Button wasn't fast enough to keep up with Vettel in the 1st Stint (inspite having the faster McLaren)...he was utterly useless at managing his Super-Softs in the 2nd stint (hence needing THREE stops for tyres in total)...he was also hopeless in terms of worrying Alonso in any way...and he was caught asleep on the re-start. Button isn't in Vettel's league and certainly wasn't in Monaco.
 

Slyboogy

World Champion
Contributor
Ray, as much as I agree with you that Vettel deserved 10 and showed coolness and maturity under pressure, but Button needed 3 stops due to his team putting him on super softs in his second stint, WHICH Vettel and Red Bull where originally going to do this strategy but they made an error, why did Button need three stops? Because he had to put on the prime compound.

I also agree though that he didn't challenge Alonso at either stage, even though at one point he was 0.2s behind him he did not look threatening.

Now Ray, don't hit back at me with the same points about Button not managing his tyres and how Vettel did...
 

Jen

Here be dragons.
Contributor
Vettel was out to finish the race with 62 laps on Softs (Primes) and drove accordingly. Vettel's drive was measured and mature. Vettel deserves a 10 for Pole, for over-coming his teams error, for his coolness and maturity under pressure, for making his Primes last at least 56 laps, for stealing a win from right under McLaren's noses. Button wasn't fast enough to keep up with Vettel in the 1st Stint (inspite having the faster McLaren)...he was utterly useless at managing his Super-Softs in the 2nd stint (hence needing THREE stops for tyres in total)...he was useless in terms of worrying Alonso in any way...and he was caught asleep on the re-start. Button isn't in Vettel's league and certainly wasn't in Monaco.
OK, so you've addressed the 'first' race - and made a brave stab at the second part - so what are your perceptions on what might have happened if there had been no red flag?
 

Slyboogy

World Champion
Contributor
OK, so you've addressed the 'first' race - and made a brave stab at the second part - so what are your perceptions on what might have happened if there had been no red flag?
Vettel would have won due to his SUPREME tyre management :thumbsup:

(well I do think that either Vettel or Alonso would have won)
 

Hamberg

FOTA VIP, I've got the avatar to prove it :)
Contributor
Vettel would have won due to his SUPREME tyre management :thumbsup:

(well I do think that either Vettel or Alonso would have won)
I think that was Alonso's race without the second flag. It just depends if those tyres fell off or not at the predicted point and I'm afraid the driver isn't able to control that, if they went Vettel would have been powerless. It seems very car dependant rather than driver this year on the tyre management front.
 
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