Grand Prix 2011 Italian Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

The fat bloke lady is starting to sing

Sebastian Vettel took a major stride towards a second world championship after a crushing win in Belgium, he extended his lead over Mark Webber who made a good recovery from a bad start to finish second after a fantastic overtake on Fernando Alonso into Eau Rouge.

Lewis Hamiltons indifferent season continued after a crash with Kamui Kobayashi into Les Combes, while he won't admit it, he will be close to giving up on closing down Vettel as he is over 100 points behind, but while he can't win the championship, that won't stop him going to win every race remaining and with Monza being a strong McLaren track, he will be up there in the running.

Monza is one of the most historic tracks on the F1 calendar and will be full of Ferrari fans as it is the teams home race and the tifosi are known for their support of the prancing horse and after a Ferrari win in 2010 they willl be expecting more of the same from Fernando who needs a win to keep alive his fading championship hopes but an average showing in Spa including losing third place late on will be a killer blow to the Spaniard. Massa is sliding further into obscurity after a good start, but faded quickly into the minor points.

The track isn't one of Red Bulls strongest circuits due to the low downforce and long straights but we have said that a few circuits aren't Red Bull friendly circuits and Vettel has gone on to get pole and win and Monza might not be an exception with Vettel in imperious form and the car seemingly bulletproof there is no-one who can stop the bull racing to the title in emphatic fashion.

After a turbluent weekend, Pastor Maldanado picked up his first point in F1 with a strong drive to tenth (and a lot of luck) to give his beleagured Williams outfit a small reason to be happy but it represents how far they have fallen in that a point is an achievement for them. Barrichello finished a dissapointing 16th finishing behind both Lotus cars.

Bruno Senna will be aiming to improve on a promising first weekend back in F1, he qualified a brilliant 7th, but rusty racecraft caused a bad collision at turn 1 and he eventually finished 13th, the last of the unlapped cars, Petrov managed to pick up a handful of points to go level with his former team mate Nick Heidfeld who is seeking legal advice after losing his seat last week to the young Brazilian.

Adrian Sutil continues his upturn in form after outpacing Di Resta who had a poor weekend with the German taking home 7 points and Di Resta just finishing outside the points in 11th, with Nico Hulkenberg challenging for a set at Force India next season, both these two drivers have improved lately with both taking home points from the last few races
At the back of the field, Jarno Trulli finished ahead of his team-mate showing that maybe he still has some pace in the Lotus now that they have fixed the power steering issues, with Chandhok just over his shoulder he will need to beat his team-mate to ensure that he still has a seat at the team next year and extend his long career.

For Galahads supreme circuit write up see here http://cliptheapex.com/pages/autodromo-nazionale-monza/

 

[Quintessentially]

On a more serious note, hopefully Maldonado and Kamui can keep up their form and take out Vettel for the next couple of races.

 

[Slyboogy]

I wouldn't call last years race fascinating nor a classic.

Bahrain gets a lot of stick of how boring it is, mainly due to the 2010 race, but I have enjoyed the races apart from 2010, compared to the last few Monza races.

 

[landogeorgelewis1]

Can't wait for this one now, but that because i just love F1 in general. Anyways here's my predo's:

1. Hammy
2. Button
3. Di Resta (i only wish but realistically i'd say Vettel)
4. Alonso
5. Rosberg
6. Massa
7. Schumacher
8. Di Resta
9. Sutil
10. Barrichello

Like Sly i'm hoping for rain to spice up the racing at Monza, last seasons race was pretty good but other than Alonso waiting for Jenson to pit i can't think of anything (other than Lewis accidentally crashing into Massa) that really got me sat on the edge of my seat.

 

[Slyboogy]

No buemi in that top 10 of yours???

 

[landogeorgelewis1]

Argh totally forgot about young Buemi. You see he's so quiet that i keep forgetting about him.

Really think Barrichello needs to pull something out of the hat at Monza, cause lot of rumours circulating the net suggest he could be out of a drive for next season.

 

[mjo]

Historically, rain in Monza in September (apart from 04, 08 and last weekend) is virtually unheard of, isn't it?

 

[no-FIAt-please]

The drivers steward is Derek Daly.

 

[Quintessentially]

Autosport has now been confirmed that both Jenson and Hamilton run the low downforce versions of a new rear wing at Spa for aggressive DRS, so this high downforce argument can safely be discounted. The McLaren was very fast in a straight line.

We also we now know that Redbull run 10% more front camber than Pirelli advised hence the tyre wear concerns. They made their bed but thanks partly to the SC they got away with it.

 

[Quintessentially]

The drivers steward is Derek Daly.

Great. Hopefully he can restore some intergrity back in the panel. He has been on before hasn't he??

 

[FB]

Pirelli have recommended a reduced camber angle for the cars at Monza and Imola could be back - San Marino GP vs. Valencia, I think I know where my votes goes.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/94283

Imola, 31 August 2011 - an other important result has been caught up from Imola Formula and the International Automobile race track Enzo and Dino Ferrari, in a season where they are not lacked the acknowledgments for the optimal job carried out from the imolese system. As a result of the inspection carried out to July from Charlie Whiting, Responsible for the emergency of the tracks of the FIA, the same International Automotive Federation, in today's date, has sent the documentation that it attests I renew triennial of the homologation of degree 1, valid until at the end of 2014. In virtue of this I renew, that it previews the possibility to organize also a Great Prize of Formula 1, the Automobile race track of Imola confirmation once more to you concern us of the international, ready motoristica activity to face new challenges as it is tradition of the imolese system. Director and Walter Sciacca (Automobile race track): “We are proud of the caught up objective, marks them inequivocabile that we are working in the just direction. In the visit of inspection to July, Charlie Whiting has not thought of prescribes meaningful participations at the level of fact emergency, thus confirming the high qualitative standards of which the system is equipped. With I renew of the homologation we find ourselves in the condition of being able to newly accommodate a Great Prize of Formula 1, respecting in full load all the parameters demands from International the Automotive Federation. It is in our spirit not pigs never limits for which, if the just economic conditions were taken place, we are ready to face any challenge. On the other hand, like demonstrated from the words expenses in favor of Imola from a great champion like Jenson Button, that we ringraziamo once more, our track remains one of the more technical tracings and spectacular and to win to Imola always it has been considered like a species of bachelor in the career of a pilot. This year we have accommodated all the more important automotive competitions, made exception of Formula 1, but the remarkable one happening obtained has made yes that Imola is returned definitively in that narrow number of circuits that they have made and they continue to make the history of the international motorismo”.

Translated from the original Italian website (via Babelfish)

http://www.autodromoimola.it/it/not...ernazionale-enzo-e-dino-ferrari-di-imola.html

 

[Road of Bones]

^
(don't you just love garbled translations? "that it attests I renew trienniel of the homologation of degree1..." - it's like reading the translated-from-the-Korean instruction manuals for a washing machine: "appropriately bundled must the clothing, insertion to the drum of washing then door the close firmly. Softening add to the drawer of operating. Add no fish!! Spin the wheel of instruction to their favourable positions and engage the button of commence...")

 

[Quintessentially]

Let’s see if Redbull will adhere to this camber advice or exceed it again. It is clear they were not sincere in their arguments at Spa after blaming it on safety grounds when it was all about performance (confirmed by Pirelli).

 

[tranquility2k9]

Autosport has now been confirmed that both Jenson and Hamilton run the low downforce versions of a new rear wing at Spa for aggressive DRS, so this high downforce argument can safely be discounted. The McLaren was very fast in a straight line.

We also we now know that Redbull run 10% more front camber than Pirelli advised hence the tyre wear concerns. They made their bed but thanks partly to the SC they got away with it.

McLaren brought 3 rear wings to Spa which had a more powerful DRS than their usual rear wing that they used at Hungary (and all other previous races). So they had 4 in total to choose from. Out of these 3 rear wings with more powerful DRS they ended up using the middle one in terms of downforce. They did have a more skinny, lower downforce rear wing. I know this because I saw it during practice coverage and have also seen pictures of them all in use. So in other words they had a rear wing which would have made them even faster on the straights, but would have compromised downforce. I'm also sure I heard Martin Whitmarsh confirm this during the weekend.

I have seen the Autosport article you refer to, they are comparing the rear wing McLaren used at Spa vs the one they first started testing in practice during Valencia or Silverstone. That does not mean that they did not have another wing that they could have used. I have read pleanty of Autosport tech analysis in the past that has been slightly misleading with regard to how many of a particular component a team brought to a GP or introduced at a GP. For example, at a previous GP, McLaren had 3 different front-wings, yet Autosport did an article that compared 2 of them and if you read it without knowing they had 3 different front-wings, you would assume they only had 2 to choose from.

I guess maybe you are right about McLaren being faster than I thought on the straights at Spa, however, I think saying they were "very fast" is a little bit of an overstatement. They were not any faster than Red Bull, Or Mercedes, or Sauber for example. I guess why they appeared slow to me is because they are usually the fastest on the straights, or faster than most of their competitors who were faster than them at Spa. I guess they concluded that with rain during qualifying and always a potential for rain in the race, it was safest to run the medium downforce wing. In reality, in the race, if they had run the lower downforce rear wing then it would allow them to overtake easier and also allow them to hold position when in-front easier. If JB and LH would have been running near the front during the whole race, where they should have been then that would have been cruicial for them in attack and defence against Ferrari and RB. I hope they deploy this tactic at Monza, because I fear if they run a higher downforce rear wing, to gain more lap time in qualifying, I think it could hurt them in the race.

 

[Quintessentially]

So in other words they had a rear wing which would have made them even faster on the straights, but would have compromised downforce. I'm also sure I heard Martin Whitmarsh confirm this during the weekend.

? I don't think you are disagreeing with me and to be frank I am not sure why we are still arguing over whether or not McLaren were fast in a straight line. The numbers prove conclusively that they were very fast in a straight line. Overall faster than the Redbulls, Ferraris and Mercedes (with the exception of Intermediate 1 against the Mercs) but not the Saubers and I have already responded on the previous page. The Autosport article I referred to is in the technical analysis section of this week's print. It was simply an analysis of the rear wing that Jenson and Hamilton run IN THE RACE. They confirmed it was a low downforce rear wing and it's hard to see how Autosport can get this wrong as access to info is much easier post race once the cars are out of parc ferme. The analysis also seems to tie in with the speed charts so they can't be far off.

 

[Bill Boddy]

There seems to be a lot in this thread about Spa but I don't see the relevance. Spa has high speed bends, Monza has low speed chicanes.

In the past the rear wings at Monza have been single element with minimum downforce. I expect this year to be the same. As to DRS, with such a low downforce setup it will have less of an effect than on the other circuits so far this year. The zones where it may be used will have to be much longer to materially do more than get the chasing car slightly nearer at the end of the zone than at the beginning.

I would expect a battle between Ferrari and McLaren with the drivers pretty equally matched.

 

[tranquility2k9]

? I don't think you are disagreeing with me and to be frank I am not sure why we are still arguing over whether or not McLaren were fast in a straight line. The numbers prove conclusively that they were very fast in a straight line. Overall faster than the Redbulls, Ferraris and Mercedes (with the exception of Intermediate 1 against the Mercs) but not the Saubers and I have already responded on the previous page. The Autosport article I referred to is in the technical analysis section of this week's print. It was simply an analysis of the rear wing that Jenson and Hamilton run IN THE RACE. They confirmed it was a low downforce rear wing and it's hard to see how Autosport can get this wrong as access to info is much easier post race once the cars are out of parc ferme. The analysis also seems to tie in with the speed charts so they can't be far off.

I don't think the race numbers are very conclusive with regard to top speeds in general because it all depends on what the tyre life was and whether the top speed was recorded when a car was in the slipstream and able to use the DRS. Getting a good tow from the car in-front could make a huge difference to the numbers. That's why I was looking at the qualifying. As Jenson did not get through to Q3, I was just looking at Hamilton and although I cannot seem to view the FIA PDFs at the moment, I remember seeing Hamilton not being that high in the speed traps. He wasn't held up or anything, through all of his hot laps in Q3, he was not very fast in sector 1 for some reason. Mercedes for example with Rosberg (I think) had the fastest sector 1 time, which is no coincidence as it is common knowledge that they have the best top speed and most powerful DRS/Rear wing. So to say McLaren were faster than Mercedes in a straight line, I just cannot agree with. I guess we'll agree to disagree on that one. But we'll put the topic to bed for now. Sorry im not trying to cause an argument and I know you're not either. I guess we just both have our opinions and there's different ways of interpreting things sometimes.

Also just to clarify, I have seen the same Autosport article you refer to and I agree with you that they do say that both drivers ran the low downforce rear wing of the 2 they compare in the article. What they failed to mention was there was another rear wing used in practice which was even smaller and would have given an even better top speed. I was simply saying that in my opinion, for the race at least, they would have possibly benefited from using that 1. I think if you compared McLaren's wing to Red Bull or Mercedes or Sauber for example, the difference in size of the rear flap was quite obvious. McLaren's was noticeably a little bigger. This does not automatically mean they have a lower top speed either, as you say they were comparable or even faster to some cars who had visually skinnier rear wings, but I just think if they were even faster than they were on the straights then it may have been beneficial, especially for Hamilton as he was getting mugged a bit on the straights, but was then catching those in-front up in the middle sector. Maybe it wasn't their top speed and for some reason the car setup wasn't working well through Eau Rouge. To me the Red Bull and Ferrari looked more comfortable and faster when going up Eau Rouge than the McLaren I guess only they truly know the answers though.

 

[Quintessentially]

In the past the rear wings at Monza have been single element with minimum downforce. I expect this year to be the same. As to DRS, with such a low downforce setup it will have less of an effect than on the other circuits so far this year.

I thought I read somewehere they'll be running two DRS activation zones?

 

[tranquility2k9]

I thought I read somewehere they'll be running two DRS activation zones?

You are quite right, there will be 2 DRS zones. It will surely help overtaking a little but I think because most cars will already have very small rear wings, then using the DRS will have a less powerful effect than at any other circuit during the year.

The big question is whether teams choose to run a very small rear wing, which should fair them better in the race as they will have a good top speed to be able to attack and defend, or whether teams will try and gain grid position by running a larger rear wing, which will probably be more beneficial over a single lap in qualifying as the DRS effect will allow the same drag reduction but crucially the car would have more downforce for the corners.

I think this is an area where Red Bull sit in the strongest position because they've ran a very small rear wing all season and because their car generates the most downforce they can get away with running a tiny wing, so they don't have much of decision to make. McLaren however, generally prefer running a larger rear wing, because it gives them more downforce and with their Mercedes engine they can usually get quite a good top speed anyway. Jenson proved this tactic "could" work last year, but I think the main problem was that it was obvious he would have struggled to overtake if he was not in the lead. You've also got to remember that he could use his F-duct throughout the whole race last year, whereas DRS can only be used when behind a car and not to defend.

What im also wondering is, as with the F-duct last year, if you remember, some teams chose to run without the F-duct, because its effect was so minimal and you could actually create a more efficient rear wing without it. It would be very intriguing if a team tried running a wing that does not use DRS. I've already heard that the optimum rear wing, when DRS is not allowed (e.g. during the race), would not have the whole DRS design.

 

[Road of Bones]

Some good points there Tranq.

Thinking about it, I expect the top teams to run as skinny a rear wing as they can, given that Monza doesn't have a Spa-like sector 2 requiring a bit of downforce, and the likelihood that DRS will not give the speed boost we've seen at other circuits. I expect that overtaking this weekend will be more about tyre management and pitstop timing than who has the top speed on the straight. Of course, we haven't factored KERS into this yet...

 

[tranquility2k9]

Some good points there Tranq.

Thinking about it, I expect the top teams to run as skinny a rear wing as they can, given that Monza doesn't have a Spa-like sector 2 requiring a bit of downforce, and the likelihood that DRS will not give the speed boost we've seen at other circuits. I expect that overtaking this weekend will be more about tyre management and pitstop timing than who has the top speed on the straight. Of course, we haven't factored KERS into this yet...

I reckon Monza is one of if not the most beneficial tracks in terms of KERS lap time gain. This is because it is most effective out of a heavy braking zone onto a long straight. This should obviously assist McLaren and Ferrari a little as their KERS units are better than Red Bull's, and Red Bull's does not give the maximum boost - something like 0.3 tenths compared to 0.5 from McLaren's.

All in all, I expect a very closely fought race but think it will be McLaren, Ferrari and then Red Bull this weekend, in that order. So im expecting the top 6 to be something like:-

Hamilton
Button
Alonso
Vettel
Massa
Webber