Grand Prix 2011 Italian Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

The fat bloke lady is starting to sing

Sebastian Vettel took a major stride towards a second world championship after a crushing win in Belgium, he extended his lead over Mark Webber who made a good recovery from a bad start to finish second after a fantastic overtake on Fernando Alonso into Eau Rouge.

Lewis Hamiltons indifferent season continued after a crash with Kamui Kobayashi into Les Combes, while he won't admit it, he will be close to giving up on closing down Vettel as he is over 100 points behind, but while he can't win the championship, that won't stop him going to win every race remaining and with Monza being a strong McLaren track, he will be up there in the running.

Monza is one of the most historic tracks on the F1 calendar and will be full of Ferrari fans as it is the teams home race and the tifosi are known for their support of the prancing horse and after a Ferrari win in 2010 they willl be expecting more of the same from Fernando who needs a win to keep alive his fading championship hopes but an average showing in Spa including losing third place late on will be a killer blow to the Spaniard. Massa is sliding further into obscurity after a good start, but faded quickly into the minor points.

The track isn't one of Red Bulls strongest circuits due to the low downforce and long straights but we have said that a few circuits aren't Red Bull friendly circuits and Vettel has gone on to get pole and win and Monza might not be an exception with Vettel in imperious form and the car seemingly bulletproof there is no-one who can stop the bull racing to the title in emphatic fashion.

After a turbluent weekend, Pastor Maldanado picked up his first point in F1 with a strong drive to tenth (and a lot of luck) to give his beleagured Williams outfit a small reason to be happy but it represents how far they have fallen in that a point is an achievement for them. Barrichello finished a dissapointing 16th finishing behind both Lotus cars.

Bruno Senna will be aiming to improve on a promising first weekend back in F1, he qualified a brilliant 7th, but rusty racecraft caused a bad collision at turn 1 and he eventually finished 13th, the last of the unlapped cars, Petrov managed to pick up a handful of points to go level with his former team mate Nick Heidfeld who is seeking legal advice after losing his seat last week to the young Brazilian.

Adrian Sutil continues his upturn in form after outpacing Di Resta who had a poor weekend with the German taking home 7 points and Di Resta just finishing outside the points in 11th, with Nico Hulkenberg challenging for a set at Force India next season, both these two drivers have improved lately with both taking home points from the last few races
At the back of the field, Jarno Trulli finished ahead of his team-mate showing that maybe he still has some pace in the Lotus now that they have fixed the power steering issues, with Chandhok just over his shoulder he will need to beat his team-mate to ensure that he still has a seat at the team next year and extend his long career.

For Galahads supreme circuit write up see here http://cliptheapex.com/pages/autodromo-nazionale-monza/

 

[tranquility2k9]

I think McLaren were running too much downforce in Spa. Lewis especially was slow on the straights in the race and Jenson's straight line speed was flattered by him overtaking much slower cars or those with inferior tyres.

In qualifying Hamilton was fastest in the high downforce sector 2 but lost a lot of time in sector 1 and a bit in sector 3 where all the straights are.

I'm not sure whether they maybe need to run a lower downforce Front Wing as well as a low downforce Rear Wing. Also, im sure Ted Kravitz mentioned at Spa in qualifying that McLaren had gone for the middle of 3 different rear wings and thus there was one which was even lower downforce. Surely they will use this at Monza.

As much as running a high downforce rear wing will benefit in qualifying when DRS is available all the lap, it will mean very low top speed in the race. If a car runs a low downforce rear wing then in the race they will be able to overtake and also able to defend as top speed is key. That is my belief anyway.

 

[mjo]

It's certainly going to be an intriguing race, with the DRS situation. I am tipping Mercedes to have a strong weekend here, and the same with Mclaren, with their strong DRS.

 

[no-FIAt-please]

I'm tipping Red Bull Vettel for the win. I also think Alonso has one of his best chances for a win, their car was really strong here last season and with DRS I doubt anyone would try a 'Button' and slap a big rear wing on.

 

[Sarinaide]

The voices have spoken and they say Monza will be.

1] Hamilton
2] Alonso
3] Button
4] Vettel
5] Webber
6] Schumacher
7] Massa
8] Rosberg
9] Petrov
10] Alguesuari.

 

[Quintessentially]

I think McLaren were running too much downforce in Spa. Lewis especially was slow on the straights in the race and Jenson's straight line speed was flattered by him overtaking much slower cars or those with inferior tyres.

I think they were a bit pre-occupied with looking after their tyres (Hamilton is particular) in the initial phases of the race and that's why they looked slow. Speed trap data suggests they were not slow at all.

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1_media/Documents/bel-race-speeds.pdf

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1_media/Documents/bel-race-trap.pdf

 

[Kamui-FastestChefInTheWorld]

My Predictions (although these probably won't happen):

1) Rosberg
2) Hamilton
3) Vettel
4) Massa
5) Sutil
6) Button
7) di Resta
8) Pérez
9) Kobayashi
10) Schumacher

 

[Jos the Boss]

I'll do 2 my fantasy and my real prediction guess which is which!
1.Schumi
2.Rosberg
3.Hammy
4.Massa
5.Button
6.Kobayahi
7.Barrichello
8.Perez
9.Di Resta
10.Kovalainen

1.Hammy
2.Alonso
3.Button
4.Schumi
5.Rosberg
6.Webber
7.Massa
8.Senna
9.Di Resta
10.Kobayashi

 

[racecub]

Hmmm I dont know you well enough to know your preferences but since the second list is the most likely Id say the first one is your fantasy and you like mercedes. And you dont like Vettel.Or Alonso This would be my fantasy top ten
1. Lewis
2. Senna
3. Massa
4. Button
5. Petrov
6 Di Resta
7.Rosberg
8. Perez
9. Schumi (jeeez that was hard to put him in there!)
10.Kobi(he might have been higher before last weekend)
Last. maldonado

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Aha ha!

The only way a Mercedes will win in Italy is under a topsy-turvy, rain-hit and chaotic qualifying and/or race scenario...'a la Vettel/Toro Rosso 2008.

Otherwise, their car simply isn't fast enough no matter how fast it is in a straight line.

As others have said, Hamilton is unlikely to let McLaren run too high a downforce spec on their car like they did at Spa. McLaren will be out to win. Ferrari will throw everything at it too...and RBR, even if they're third best, will have the measure of Mercedes too.

It's nice to dream though!

Perhaps they ought to hire the Canadian Indian Witch Doktor who did all those rain dances for Jenson in Montreal!

 

[sushifiesta]

Mercedes might not be able to win but they can definitely be a big factor in the race when you consider what Rosberg was doing at Spa. Mercedes and Ferrari seem to be miles ahead of McLaren and Red Bull when it comes to starts this season, and they're meant to have the best DRS so if things go their way I think they could sneak a podium at least.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Aha ha!

As others have said, Hamilton is unlikely to let McLaren run too high a downforce spec on their car like they did at Spa. McLaren will be out to win. Ferrari will throw everything at it too...and RBR, even if they're third best, will have the measure of Mercedes too.

When you have a team decide to run extra downforce on one of the highest speed circuits, especially considering that said teams strength in the previous years has been high speed setups, and that their ongoing weakness has been enough downforce in slower corners where Newey cars reign supreme, its hard to assume Lewis, or anyone with common sense has any strategic input at the McLaren of the last few years

And a wrong gamble on weather is no excuse for a top team

 

[tranquility2k9]

I think they were a bit pre-occupied with looking after their tyres (Hamilton is particular) in the initial phases of the race and that's why they looked slow. Speed trap data suggests they were not slow at all.

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1_media/Documents/bel-race-speeds.pdf

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1_media/Documents/bel-race-trap.pdf

Those speeds are completely misleading. Besides. The official race trap was at the top of Eau Rouge and therefore is not measuring straightline speed. The best measure of straight line speed was at the end of the Kemmel straight, which I think is measured by Intermediate 1 in those FIA documents. Button is 6th in that list for the race but then again he was very fast towards the end on new soft tyres, using DRS and slip streaming others, so it means nothing.

Qualifying was a key indicator and McLaren were quickest in sector 2 yet slower than Red Bull in the straight line sectors 1 and 3. I think this says it all. Also, Hamilton (the only true indicator in qualifying as Button was out in Q2), was about 9KPH slower than Vettel in the speed trap. . .

Look at Hamilton's interview after he crashed. He said they were "massively slow on the straights". Ted Kravitz said they were notably running more wing than their near rivals. It is not all a coincidence.

Also they were not looking after their tyres anymore than any other team in my mind, especially not more so than Red Bull!

 

[Quintessentially]

Those speeds are completely misleading. Besides. The official race trap was at the top of Eau Rouge and therefore is not measuring straightline speed. The best measure of straight line speed was at the end of the Kemmel straight, which I think is measured by Intermediate 1 in those FIA documents. Button is 6th in that list for the race but then again he was very fast towards the end on new soft tyres, using DRS and slip streaming others, so it means nothing.

Qualifying was a key indicator and McLaren were quickest in sector 2 yet slower than Red Bull in the straight line sectors 1 and 3. I think this says it all. Also, Hamilton (the only true indicator in qualifying as Button was out in Q2), was about 9KPH slower than Vettel in the speed trap. . .

Look at Hamilton's interview after he crashed. He said they were "massively slow on the straights". Ted Kravitz said they were notably running more wing than their near rivals. It is not all a coincidence.

Also they were not looking after their tyres anymore than any other team in my mind, especially not more so than Red Bull!

Misleading if not put into the proper context;

1. Yes intermediate 1 measured best straight line speed at the end of Kemmel (maximum speed is around 330kph). You say Button was 6th and attributed this to "new soft tyres and DRS" but Hamilton was only 2kph slower despite not completing half of the race. He also recorded the 12th best maximum speed of the race - better than the Ferraris and Redbulls. Button also achieved those speeds without a rear wing end plate after contact with Alguersuari at the start. To me this showed just how fast the McLarens were in a straight line. It was clear Hamilton was driving a conservative race at the initial phase of the race partly because of tyres. I seem to recall his race engineer passing on radio messages about how they need to look after them.

2. When you look at the maximum race speeds at other parts of the circuit the McLarens were consistently at or near the top.

3. Here's the chart for quali and the difference between the top teams in intermediate 1(as you say a true measure of top end speed) was negligible,

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1_media/Documents/bel-qualifying-speeds.pdf

4. I don't know why you're using the speed trap for comparison in quali (Hamilton was less than 7kph slower than Vettel not 9kph) as you've already discounted it in your first paragraph that it is not a true measure of top speed. You would also notice that the speed traps were taken at different times and Hamilton's lap was probably compromised by cars ahead and possibly a dodgy front suspension after the collision with Maldonado.

5. Why fall back on what Hamilton said when the data is right in front of you to formulate a factual opinion? He almost certainly hadn't been debriefed at the time of the interview or scrutinized his own data and McLaren subsequently dismissed some of his downbeat assessment on car performance after reviewing the numbers. And the numbers comprehensively prove that McLaren were far from slow on the straights. I can understand why Hamilton thought otherwise as the Saubers (Kobayashi's especially) were mighty quick in a straight line and both their cars recorded the best times in intermediate 1 during the race.

6. Kravitz says a lot of shit which is not true. He also said McLaren were running a steeper rear wing plane for better DRS effect than their rivals.

Edit: Happy for a mod to move this to the Belgian GP thread.

 

[FB]

I can see the relevance of a discussion on the relative top speeds of the cars at Spa in relation to Monza because of the similar high speed nature of the circuit. What was obvious to me in Spa was that the Red Bull's, who have historically not been as fast as the other front running teams, are now equally as fast.

For Mclaren in Monza they at least don't have the choice of whether to run the F Duct or not so this year will be very different with DRS. The choice will be to run higher wing in qualie knowing they can use DRS everywhere but then compromise top speed for the race. The DRS zones will be very interesting, we could be back to the slipstreaming battles of the 60's.

 

[Jos the Boss]

Hmmm I dont know you well enough to know your preferences but since the second list is the most likely Id say the first one is your fantasy and you like mercedes. And you dont like Vettel.Or Alonso

Thats exactly right apart from i do like vettel I just think hes too far ahead!

 

[Slyboogy]

I hope there is rain....Monza is incredibly a boring race too watch.

In the last 5 years the Bahrain track nearly has double the amount of overtakes, even though Monza had a wet race in one of those 5 years.

My predictions:

1.Buemi
2. Schumacher
3. Hakkinen
4. Montoya
5. Ide

 

[Andrea_Moda_Rules]

I hope their is rain....Monza is incredibly a boring race too watch.

In the last 5 years the Bahrain track nearly has double the amount of overtakes, even though Monza had a wet race in one of those 5 years.

More todo with the cars IMO then the track. Hopefully with the tyres at least, Getting Traction out the slow corners will be more important. Well thats my theory anyway. Then theres DRS.......hmmmm did i just really say that.

Anyway rain may be on the Cards......but then Autosport said that for every race this year. Think they had it for Barharin (before it was canelled finally) too or did i just imange that.

Im putting my money on a Merc 1-2 Schumi wins? Why bother with favorites, Its more fun losing my money when its the rank outsiders im betting on.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

I hope their is rain....Monza is incredibly a boring race too watch.

In the last 5 years the Bahrain track nearly has double the amount of overtakes.

Last year wasn't boring. Last year Bahrain was uttely boring while Monza was fascinating. And It doesn't matter how many more over-takes there were in Bahrain v Monza. What matters is that we had a tight race on our hands in Italy. Bahrain, in comparison was dreadfully dull.

Just because a race has more over-takes doesn't mean it's more exciting/facinating, IMO.

 

[Quintessentially]

Yeah last year's race was very intriguing. Arguably Jenson should've won it but it looks like Nando drew a few tenths from the Tifosi.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Yeah last year's race was very intriguing. Arguably Jenson should've won it but it looks like Nando drew a few tenths from the Tifosi.

Truth be told, Ferrari's pit crew should get the victory trophy for last year's Italian GP. Both Alonso and Button drove flat-out, error free races but the Scuderia's tyre call and change was a 10!

If I were Alonso, I would have bought every person in the Ferrari box that day a Rolex each.

Who knows, may be he did!