Verstappen claims Schumacher used illegitimate means at Benetton

[Lewywo4]

Sounds like a person who has swallowed too many bitter pills!

 

[Il_leone]

Come on Jos was not even prepared for F1 when he came in to substitute Lehto. The gap was 2 seconds between him and Michael but not all of it can be down to some illegal electronic aid

 

[Dario Resta]

There are plenty of people who worked at Benetton at the time who could have fessed up by now, not least Flab and Pat Symonds. I find it a little strange that Jos now wants to tell how 17 years ago he was stitched up by Benetton into looking rubbish when he was actually a world beater. Why be silent for 17 years? The B194 was designed for Schumacher, and others found it a difficult, unpredictable car to drive. When Schumacher joined Ferrari and tested in the 1995 car he thought it was a fantastic car, unlike Alesi and Berger, who thought it was pants. They in turn didn't get on with the B196 which was not too far removed in characteristics from the B195.

It is not true that traction control software was found on the B194, only a launch control option (option 13), which was hidden in the software menu. As has been mentioned above, McLaren were found to have run an automatic upchange, but went unpunished. The reason only Schumacher's Benetton is suspected of running illegal software, and not the second B194 is that it was only his car that had it's software code inspected! It doesn't mean the sister car was different in any way. The same goes for the two McLarens. Illegal software was found on Hakkinen's car as only the top three finishers (Schumacher, Larini and Hakkinen) had their code analysed. At Imola, Lehto qualified within 1 second of Schumacher, whereas at Silverstone Verstappen was nearly 2 seconds off Schumacher's pace. Benetton and McLaren both refused at first to hand over their source code and were fined.Ferrari (as mentioned by Senna's Right Foot) handed theirs over immediately.

The FIA tried everything to manipulate the 1994 season as soon as Schumacher threatened to run away with it. The black flag incident at Silverstone was a farce. Schumacher broke the rules and rightly got a penalty for it, but there was confusion as to what the penalty was (a stop-go or time added at the end of the race). Also, Benetton were not informed of ANY penalty within the correct time. It was while this was being discussed between Benetton and the officials that Schumacher was black flagged. He didn't ignore the flag but was told by the team to stay out while they clarified the penalty. If he had come in and retired the car only to find out later the correct penalty (a stop-go) had been applied, he'd have looked a right pillock (which he already did for the parade lap nonsense).

Schumacher's start at Magny Cours was after the source code had been analysed, so if it was a viable system (and a menu option doesn't make it so), they'd have been mighty dumb to use it after it had been discovered. I think Schumacher just got a great start that day. Without the FIA trying to keep the championship alive artificially, Adelaide would have been irrelevant and those that are bitter about Damon being "robbed" wouldn't have an argument. The one that came close to being robbed was Schumacher.

Sorry if that's all a bit long!

 

[Mezzer]

For me Senna's statement on listening to the Benetton was more convincing. We'll never know but we'll always likely suspect. That said, motorsport has always had an element of cheating in it, if caught you're a villain, if not you're a hero.

 

[Il_leone]

There are plenty of people who worked at Benetton at the time who could have fessed up by now, not least Flab and Pat Symonds. I find it a little strange that Jos now wants to tell how 17 years ago he was stitched up by Benetton into looking rubbish when he was actually a world beater. Why be silent for 17 years? The B194 was designed for Schumacher, and others found it a difficult, unpredictable car to drive. When Schumacher joined Ferrari and tested in the 1995 car he thought it was a fantastic car, unlike Alesi and Berger, who thought it was pants. They in turn didn't get on with the B196 which was not too far removed in characteristics from the B195.

It is not true that traction control software was found on the B194, only a launch control option (option 13), which was hidden in the software menu. As has been mentioned above, McLaren were found to have run an automatic upchange, but went unpunished. The reason only Schumacher's Benetton is suspected of running illegal software, and not the second B194 is that it was only his car that had it's software code inspected! It doesn't mean the sister car was different in any way. The same goes for the two McLarens. Illegal software was found on Hakkinen's car as only the top three finishers (Schumacher, Larini and Hakkinen) had their code analysed. At Imola, Lehto qualified within 1 second of Schumacher, whereas at Silverstone Verstappen was nearly 2 seconds off Schumacher's pace. Benetton and McLaren both refused at first to hand over their source code and were fined.Ferrari (as mentioned by Senna's Right Foot) handed theirs over immediately.

The FIA tried everything to manipulate the 1994 season as soon as Schumacher threatened to run away with it. The black flag incident at Silverstone was a farce. Schumacher broke the rules and rightly got a penalty for it, but there was confusion as to what the penalty was (a stop-go or time added at the end of the race). Also, Benetton were not informed of ANY penalty within the correct time. It was while this was being discussed between Benetton and the officials that Schumacher was black flagged. He didn't ignore the flag but was told by the team to stay out while they clarified the penalty. If he had come in and retired the car only to find out later the correct penalty (a stop-go) had been applied, he'd have looked a right pillock (which he already did for the parade lap nonsense).

Schumacher's start at Magny Cours was after the source code had been analysed, so if it was a viable system (and a menu option doesn't make it so), they'd have been mighty dumb to use it after it had been discovered. I think Schumacher just got a great start that day. Without the FIA trying to keep the championship alive artificially, Adelaide would have been irrelevant and those that are bitter about Damon being "robbed" wouldn't have an argument. The one that came close to being robbed was Schumacher.

Sorry if that's all a bit long!

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An interesting take

I should clarify traction control software as in launch control is what I meant and the fast getaway in Magny cours raised suspicions.

The Silverstone incident was farcical because the team were surprised about the penalty but having told to stay out they were given a black flag which Schumacher said he could not see. A black flag means pull in no arguments - history shows you don;t mess with the officials when given a black flag

I thought Benetton acted irresponsibly on their part for failing to inform Schumacher the race was over there and then

 

[teabagyokel]

I remember that Kelvin MacKenzie was on the BBC One programme "Would I Lie To You?" a couple of years ago. Obviously the answer was yes!

So now, in a similar vein, we need to examine all available evidence about the character of F. Briatore Esq.

1. Would Mr. Briatore run a team with one dominant driver, particularly if that driver happens to be from one of Bernie Ecclestone's target markets and who suddenly finds his home country having two Grands Prix?
2. Would Mr. Briatore shaft his second driver?
3. Does Mr. Briatore have a history of playing hard and fast with the rules?

The answer to all those questions is "Nelsinho Piquet".
So, in summary, I think Benetton probably used traction control in 1994. However, I believe had they used the system on car #6 the gap between Schumacher and Verstappen would have been reduced only from 2 seconds to a Massa/Alonso style performance deficit.
Sorry, Jos. And, by the way, the most help Jos has ever been to Schumacher was at the 2001 Brazilian GP when he decided unilaterally to eliminate Juan Montoya!

 

[Galahad]

I suppose the fact we're all talking about this still after 17 years speaks volumes. Jos clearly doesn't know whether Schumacher had any illegal aids on his car or not, so this doesn't move the debate on very much.

I'm looking forward to Pat Symonds' autobiography. Hopefully the publishers will approve it on a day when the lawyers are asleep.

 

[Il_leone]

Further to above

the B195 was designed for Schumacher by Rory Byrne to have an oversteer feel as he did not mind what the back does as he could cope with it along with his throttle control

When Berger and Alesi tested the B195 .. Berger confirmed what Herbert has been saying the car was twitchy in favouring an oversteer feel . The result was Berger crashed 3 times complaining the car was simply unforgiveable and he said that was not the car he had to get use to
Alesi did not complain as much as his first test he was about 1 second faster than Schumacher in a Ferrari and his superb car control can cope with the oversteer feel
the only complaint he had was the team was what he was promised a supposedly top team when he visited the factory..it was not like he saw at Ferrari certainly not having the same facilities etc

The B196 was the next best car still in 1996 and should have won a couple of races but for mechanical gremlins

 

[Jos the Boss]

Or Flavio's! That will be something else!

And if I was Verstappen I would help Schumi massively!

 

[Il_leone]

I remember that Kelvin MacKenzie was on the BBC One programme "Would I Lie To You?" a couple of years ago. Obviously the answer was yes!

So now, in a similar vein, we need to examine all available evidence about the character of F. Briatore Esq.

1. Would Mr. Briatore run a team with one dominant driver, particularly if that driver happens to be from one of Bernie Ecclestone's target markets and who suddenly finds his home country having two Grands Prix?
2. Would Mr. Briatore shaft his second driver?
3. Does Mr. Briatore have a history of playing hard and fast with the rules?

The answer to all those questions is "Nelsinho Piquet".

So, in summary, I think Benetton probably used traction control in 1994. However, I believe had they used the system on car #6 the gap between Schumacher and Verstappen would have been reduced only from 2 seconds to a Massa/Alonso style performance deficit.
Sorry, Jos. And, by the way, the most help Jos has ever been to Schumacher was at the 2001 Brazilian GP when he decided unilaterally to eliminate Juan Montoya!

Maybe the question should be asked about Flavio's integrity to

Martin Brundle - mysteriously dropped after 1 year despite 6 podiums and matching Schumacher in race pace but lacked qualifying and replaced by Patrese who was chosen because of his supposedly superior qualifying form

Johnny Herbert - moved over from Ligier on the basis the team needed someone who can back up Schumacher. After 1 practice session being faster than Schumacher. Flavio tells him things will change and that Schumacher does not want him to see his telemetry and set up. Was replaced by Berger and had to found out on ceefax before being told. The second time he has been shafted by Flavio at Benetton. Still managed more wins than both Alesi and Berger together

Alex Wurz - matched Fisichella (managed by Flavio) first season but when Flavio came back seems to struggle in 1999 and 2000

Jenson Button / Jarno Trulli - both offered to stay at Renault with a clause that their pay rise includes Flavio has to be their manager taking a 25% commission of their salary. Both refused and were treated worse than dirt

Fisichella - the once golden boy of Flavio was displaced by Alonso on his return to the Renault team. Worse was the treatment he received whilst Flavio waited to get Alonso back from Mclaren and suddenly meant he was only left with a Force India drive . Previously his career has been dictated by Flavio moving to other teams to accommodate his other drivers into F1 and his own wallet

Nelsinho - see above

Grosjean - so Flavio brings him to every race to undermine Nelsinho and then expects him to be on it straight away with no testing and not even allowed to challenge Alonso

 

[gethinceri]

Verstappen is only saying Schumacher was faster than him. To me he means that and that only.

 

[tonyw151]

I know it is off topic, but what are the legalities of someone like FB managing both a driver and a team?

 

[Il_leone]

I know it is off topic, but what are the legalities of someone like FB managing both a driver and a team?

None really because there are no rules by the FIA that says a team principal cannot be the driver's manager

The only rule in place in the wake of crash gate is that every team boss must hold an FIA licence from now on to be a team principal. Flavio argued that the FIA had no grounds to ban him because he is not contracted to them or represented by them. when he tried to sue to loss of earnings

 

[The Artist.....]

I know it is off topic, but what are the legalities of someone like FB managing both a driver and a team?

One does have to ask why a Multi-national company like Renault allowed one person to effectively decide how much of a cut he was going to take from the team! e.g. If he had a contract with a driver, which allowed him to take 10% of the salary, (Which is not unheard of in some professions), but then was also involved with setting the driver contract, then there would be a definite conflict of interest!

 

[Il_leone]

One does have to ask why a Multi-national company like Renault allowed one person to effectively decide how much of a cut he was going to take from the team! e.g. If he had a contract with a driver, which allowed him to take 10% of the salary, (Which is not unheard of in some professions), but then was also involved with setting the driver contract, then there would be a definite conflict of interest!

it was nearer 25% commission from drivers salary

like I said they did not do anything because success was delivered on the track by Alonso. Its when there was not success all the problems started especially as Flavio bent over backwards for Fernando and convinced Renault to fork out £20m a year or so to bring him back from Mclaren and build the team around Alonso as per usual.

However he undermined and bullied Nelsinho who got his revenge on him and Renault realised it was seriously damaging the brand and don;t want anything to do with Flavio.

Off course Flavio was blowing his own trumpet saying he knows how to spot a talented driver when he sees on to justify having one from his stable at the height of Renault's success

 

[racecub]

And, by the way, the most help Jos has ever been to Schumacher was at the 2001 Brazilian GP when he decided unilaterally to eliminate Juan Montoya!

SO SO ANNOYING was that!!

 

[RickD]

For me Senna's statement on listening to the Benetton was more convincing. We'll never know but we'll always likely suspect. That said, motorsport has always had an element of cheating in it, if caught you're a villain, if not you're a hero.

Seems to me that Schumacher is the Villian in this case without being caught, so that doesn't hold water. I give Schumacher the benefit of the doubt in this instance, especially as nothing has ever been proved either way and there are too many Damon fans out there who are still WAY too emotional over Adelaide. Damon should have lost that season on % of points won and quite rightly did, anything else would have been a travesty and a win for the FIA.

 

[Senna's_right_foot]

Seems to me that Schumacher is the Villian in this case without being caught, so that doesn't hold water. I give Schumacher the benefit of the doubt in this instance, especially as nothing has ever been proved either way and there are too many Damon fans out there who are still WAY too emotional over Adelaide. Damon should have lost that season on % of points won and quite rightly did, anything else would have been a travesty and a win for the FIA.

To be honest, the way I see it is that if he hadn't rammed Hill at Adelaide, the whole TC did he/didn't he would have long been forgotten. Teams bend the rules, it happens and always has. Ramming Hill only exacerbated any bad feeling towards Benetton, but mostly Schumacher himself, obviously. The problem was that then of course we had Jerez '97 ("that didn't work, you've hit the wrong part of him my friend") which again exacerbated the bad feeling even more and convinced those who were sceptical of Schumacher's denial that '94 was intentional that it was deliberate. If you ram someone deliberately once, you might just about be able to blag your way out of it. Do it twice, and any benefit of the doubt about the first incident will be retracted, and questions and suspicions about the TC denial are again raised. Then of course lest we forget Briatore and Singapore '08.... Just the way I see it

 

[siffert_fan]

I have always thought that the muli-race suspension given to MS after the British GP was purely the result of his running away with the championship. He looked all set to clinch the WDC with at least 5 races remaining, which would have hurt both attendance and tv numbers. When Mansell ignored the black flag, I seem to recall it was 1989 in Portugal, he only received a one race suspension. And his initial transgression was far worse than Schumachers--reversing in pit lane during the race vs passing the leader on the formation lap. Damon would never have been in contention for the title that year without the excessive penalty.

 

[Il_leone]

I have always thought that the muli-race suspension given to MS after the British GP was purely the result of his running away with the championship. He looked all set to clinch the WDC with at least 5 races remaining, which would have hurt both attendance and tv numbers. When Mansell ignored the black flag, I seem to recall it was 1989 in Portugal, he only received a one race suspension. And his initial transgression was far worse than Schumachers--reversing in pit lane during the race vs passing the leader on the formation lap. Damon would never have been in contention for the title that year without the excessive penalty.

Difference is the team and Schumacher broke two penalties and not one. I mean when you are given the black flag the race is over no questions asked so why on earth they decided to chance it did not help it was in front of the British crowd as well

They wanted to ban Schumacher for Germany but the team decided to appeal plus there was protests from German supporters threatening to torch the trees in Hockenheim if he was not allowed to participate

Although Spa dq was dubious..the blank being overworn than allowed tolerance which they blamed on a spin when it was not as it was at the rear of the plank not the front when he spun the car