Sounds exactly like what Alonso did in Germany.
Time For McLaren To Employ Team Orders "Soon"?
- Thread starter RayInTorontoCanada
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Sounds exactly like what Alonso did in Germany.
RayInTorontoCanada
Banned
I think these guys (Alonso, Hamilton, Webber) know it's vital they don't take each other off while they're ahead of Vettel. For obvious reasons.
Knowing something and actually doing it are two entirely different matters for some guys.
Hamilton, for instance, knows that you risk a tangle trying to pass a similar car for position at Monaco or in the rain with the wall next to you (like Montreal)...but he'll try it anyway!
RayInTorontoCanada
Banned
Looks like McLaren have a huge fight on their hands at the Hungaroring.
Ferrari have been making chunky in-roads into RBR and they might even have the 'in form' car right now and, especially, in the type of temperatures expected at the circuit at the weekend.
So, it's absolutely vital for McLaren to get Lewis onto the front row of the grid for this race.
The time for McLaren to shift the might of their focus on to Hamilton is now, frankly.
The time is now!
Ferrari have been making chunky in-roads into RBR and they might even have the 'in form' car right now and, especially, in the type of temperatures expected at the circuit at the weekend.
So, it's absolutely vital for McLaren to get Lewis onto the front row of the grid for this race.
The time for McLaren to shift the might of their focus on to Hamilton is now, frankly.
The time is now!
When will people realise that disagreeing with something does not and will not ever equate to something being 'rubbish'. This whole "I don't like it/I disagree with it, therefore it's shit" attitude is usually dropped around 15years old, and holds no basis for any debate.
In response to Ray's original ponderings, it's clear to me that if either Ferrari or McLaren have any hope (albeit minimal) of either of their drivers catching Vettel, their best bet is to first of all begin with favouring their fastest/best placed points driver in terms of race strategy. Obviously at this time both criteria points to Hamilton and Alonso. Button is better than Massa, but Hamilton is still the fastest McLaren driver so therefore I think if he extends his lead over Button and does well in the next few races then McLaren should begin to favour him in terms of race position over Button, especially now that team orders are not banned. Conversely, if Button is ahead of Hamilton then the same should apply.
In response to Ray's original ponderings, it's clear to me that if either Ferrari or McLaren have any hope (albeit minimal) of either of their drivers catching Vettel, their best bet is to first of all begin with favouring their fastest/best placed points driver in terms of race strategy. Obviously at this time both criteria points to Hamilton and Alonso. Button is better than Massa, but Hamilton is still the fastest McLaren driver so therefore I think if he extends his lead over Button and does well in the next few races then McLaren should begin to favour him in terms of race position over Button, especially now that team orders are not banned. Conversely, if Button is ahead of Hamilton then the same should apply.
At the moment though, as I mentioned before, with Button being exactly one race win behind Hamilton (and currently being outperformed by him), there is no need for Mclaren to favour anyone just at the moment, at least until after Hungary at the earliest. If Hamilton were to win here and Button failed to score, Lewis would be two wins ahead of Jenson and would have further closed the gap to Vettel. However, if Button won and Hamilton scored no points, the two would be level again.
I guess I just don't see Button finishing with more points than Hamilton, extenuating circumstances notwithstanding, of course. 
Can see your point though.
Can see your point though.
lyster
Rookie
I agree with Senna's right foot. I too think it's a bit of a moot point so long as Hamilton continues to simply outperform Jenson. Even as far back as Australia you had Jenson trying to hold up Vettel - not because of any team orders or anything like that - just simply because the situation called for it and it was the obvious thing to do.
Button of course needs to put himself in a position where he can actually take points off Vettel by finishing ahead of him if it's to be of any help to Lewis, and himself. Having Button changing his tactics to block Vettel during pit stints will only likely work in a few races and won't be all that affective in the long run. Mclaren just need to tell both drivers to push like hell and beat that Red Bull in as many races as possible - it's quite simple really.
Button of course needs to put himself in a position where he can actually take points off Vettel by finishing ahead of him if it's to be of any help to Lewis, and himself. Having Button changing his tactics to block Vettel during pit stints will only likely work in a few races and won't be all that affective in the long run. Mclaren just need to tell both drivers to push like hell and beat that Red Bull in as many races as possible - it's quite simple really.
The telling bit is simple, it's the doing of it which causes the problem. On the other hand if RBR really were to be demoted to the third best team in the races then the first and second places would most likely be down to Alonso and Hamilton. This could be enough to beat Vettel into third place.
It is very unlikely to happen though.
A couple of points from me at this point.
firstly, what good do you think McLaren can do NOW to support Lewis more than they are at the moment? The car is the car, and although there may be things which can be done to improve, surely they will be improvements to the car, rather than towards a specific driver. Going forwards, the same is true. I take the examples being cited regarding Michael, however, in those days the rules were more flexible, and the cars would have been balanced to his liking, indeed, one of the issues in 2010 for MS was that the car could not be balanced to his liking, even with all the ballast at the front of the car, and I believe that this was one of the reasons why the fixed weight distribution was brought in.
secondly, throwing all resource behind one driver openly would possibly damage their chances in the WCC, and let us not forget that this is where the money is. If they are not on their game, they are at risk of losing 2nd to a resurgent Ferrari, especially if both drivers are not performing to their best.
Lewis will do ok even without extra help, providing the team perform as they should, with no poor strategies/pit stops, and when push comes to shove, Jenson I am sure will do what is required, and better for all if he does this willingly and voluntarily, as opposed to being told to do so.
All the dramatics about this are really not necessary imho, at the moment, it is about winning races, and letting everything else take care of itself, and Lewis has shown he is more than capable of doing that when the car is underneath him.
firstly, what good do you think McLaren can do NOW to support Lewis more than they are at the moment? The car is the car, and although there may be things which can be done to improve, surely they will be improvements to the car, rather than towards a specific driver. Going forwards, the same is true. I take the examples being cited regarding Michael, however, in those days the rules were more flexible, and the cars would have been balanced to his liking, indeed, one of the issues in 2010 for MS was that the car could not be balanced to his liking, even with all the ballast at the front of the car, and I believe that this was one of the reasons why the fixed weight distribution was brought in.
secondly, throwing all resource behind one driver openly would possibly damage their chances in the WCC, and let us not forget that this is where the money is. If they are not on their game, they are at risk of losing 2nd to a resurgent Ferrari, especially if both drivers are not performing to their best.
Lewis will do ok even without extra help, providing the team perform as they should, with no poor strategies/pit stops, and when push comes to shove, Jenson I am sure will do what is required, and better for all if he does this willingly and voluntarily, as opposed to being told to do so.
All the dramatics about this are really not necessary imho, at the moment, it is about winning races, and letting everything else take care of itself, and Lewis has shown he is more than capable of doing that when the car is underneath him.
RayInTorontoCanada
Banned
So, what should happen if - for what ever reason - Jenson is just ahead of Lewis and is either not pulling away or actually holding him off with one of the following scenarios:
- Alonso in P1 in front of Jenson and looking like pulling away further in the lead; or
- Alonso in P3 behind Lewis but looking like closing in on both McLarens.
What do you suggest McLaren do in that case?
I mean the above scenario is well within the realms of possibility. Red Bull had to deal with it most famously in Turkey in 2010 and then Ferrari had to deal with it most famously in Hockenheim in 2010.
Don't think there is a need for Mclaren to impose team orders, Jenson Button isn't getting into a position during the races at the moment were he is actually helping Lewis Hamilton collect more points. Until Jenson starts taking points of Vettel, Webber, or Alonso it seems pointless to impose team orders.
They allow them to race.
Look at the noise that red bull and ferrari attracted, if nothing else, McLaren will show the fans that they allow the drivers to race.
And much as it pains me to say as a jb fan, he would be unlikely to hold Lewis behind him for too long. And if the team ask Jenson to pull over, what would be the repurcussions, from the public and from Jenson?
Just a thought.
Look at the noise that red bull and ferrari attracted, if nothing else, McLaren will show the fans that they allow the drivers to race.
And much as it pains me to say as a jb fan, he would be unlikely to hold Lewis behind him for too long. And if the team ask Jenson to pull over, what would be the repurcussions, from the public and from Jenson?
Just a thought.
What McLaren should be doing is giving the optimum support to both drivers. They need both drivers to be in front of Vettel to reduce his points as much as possible.
Cookinflatsix
Banned
Generally speaking anytime Button has been ahead of Lewis in a race that they both finished was when Lewis either had a problem or was asked to hold back. For the rest of the season, in these rare cases it wouldmake sense for Lewis to be allowed to overtake or for Button not to overtake if Lewis had a fuel or gearbox issue
But in the last year and a half this has only happened a couple of times so it's academic mostly
If Button finishes ahead of Lewis, it's because Lewis is out or has car trouble
If I am wrong I am sure I will be corrected
But in the last year and a half this has only happened a couple of times so it's academic mostly
If Button finishes ahead of Lewis, it's because Lewis is out or has car trouble
If I am wrong I am sure I will be corrected
Cookin, you are right mostly, but then you would expect the faster driver to finish ahead, although I would put China 10, Aus 10 (possibly) and Monza 10 forwards as examples where Jenson did seem to be ahead anyway, although that is largely a matter of opinion, and I am sure that yours will differ from mine.
The outcome is basically the same though, I am not sure that employing team orders would help anyone, Lewis included. I am also fairly sure that there is a limited opportunity for any driver other than Vettel in the WDC, my concern for McLaren would be to consolidate at least 2nd in the WCC, and improving the car to aid them in next years campaign.
They need both drivers doing their best to achieve that.
The outcome is basically the same though, I am not sure that employing team orders would help anyone, Lewis included. I am also fairly sure that there is a limited opportunity for any driver other than Vettel in the WDC, my concern for McLaren would be to consolidate at least 2nd in the WCC, and improving the car to aid them in next years campaign.
They need both drivers doing their best to achieve that.
RayInTorontoCanada
Banned
The Hungaroring is a notoriously difficult circuit on which to pass as Senna found out when Boutsen held him off for the win for 50 some laps(in 1990, I believe).
The circuit configuration isn't like Turkey or Hockenheim (where the layouts allow for some bonafide overtaking spots). It's like Monaco except it's got a dirty off line (likely with lots of marbles from the anticipated high tyre degredation on Sunday) instead of armco.
Jenson, recall, really messed up Lewis at China earlier this year when - because he was ahead and had 'first call' to the pits - stayed out beyond his scheduled lap and left Lewis to twist in the wind on rapidly degrading tyres, leaving him at Massa's mercy.
Jenson also was ahead when he and Lewis came together on the pit straight in Canada. I don't 'blame' Jenson for what happened...but it happened and could have been avoided. McLaren won, but they could have done even better.
To stick one's head in the sand like an Osterich and think there won't be a Turkey 2010 or Hockenheim 2010 or China 2011 or Canada 2011-type scenario is to do oneself a disservice and be ill prepared.
Cheers.
Ray
I get it
You think they should apply
I dont.
I believe that through the course of this thread, I have made my opinion abundantly clear.
And for that reason, as you seem to not be interested in the debate, more simply pushing your point at any opportunity, Im out.
by the way, Lewis won in China, No? so how messed up was he really?
I get it
You think they should apply
I dont.
I believe that through the course of this thread, I have made my opinion abundantly clear.
And for that reason, as you seem to not be interested in the debate, more simply pushing your point at any opportunity, Im out.
by the way, Lewis won in China, No? so how messed up was he really?
RayInTorontoCanada
Banned
Hey listen, i'm sorry you feel that way. Sincerely.
I apologize if i've offended you. Ya?
Cheers, The Pits...and have a great weekend!
To be fair, ray is stating his opinion, nothing more, nothing less.
Ray I am not offended in the slightest, I simply feel that your points have been put across, as have mine, anything further would simply mean me stating the same points i have already stated, which i believe is kind of futile.
But a pleasant weekend to you too ray, and enjoy the race!
Ray I am not offended in the slightest, I simply feel that your points have been put across, as have mine, anything further would simply mean me stating the same points i have already stated, which i believe is kind of futile.
But a pleasant weekend to you too ray, and enjoy the race!
I don't think that was Button's fault, it was more the McLaren team operating a non-flexible policy. Why should Button run a less than optimum strategy in the third race of the season? If he can make the tyres work better than his team mate why should he back out of it?
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