Current Sir Lewis Carl Davidson Hamilton MBE

A place to put all the posts from all the other threads primarily but love him or hate him, and even for the indifferent amongst us this is the place to discuss the marmite that is Lewis Hamilton, to learn a thing or two about his rise, talk about those controversial, genius or mad moments and something that i am bemused by, the recent articles that suggest something quite different to my perception of what's going on. Any experiences of meeting LH?

Brundle had to write a Lewis Hamilton article recently and in my tweets (which were probably ignored) I asked him to talk about LH the driver not LH the personality. It seems that you can't have one without the other.

So as a starter for ten, here is a fairly recent LH article. Posts should not be limited to this link but it can get some discussion going. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula_one/13755883.stm

The only banned topic as it is clearly ridiculous involves these four things "Glock" "2008" "Brazil" "conspiracy"
 
Interesting comment from Ted Kravitz during FP2, he said that Lewis was "as down as I've ever seen him yesterday".
Yes I heard that. What Lewis said didnt sound too down beat, maybe it was his manner. I hope its not all getting to him. I find it interesting that since the 'lets all have a go at lewis craze' reached its dizzy heights, the tide seems to have turned . Perhaps those inolved are feeling a little foolish and those that are neutral more compelled to speak up for him.I certainly think he came out of last weekend with more integrity than Massa.
 
Certain drivers are considered to be particularly intelligent in their on-track decision-making; on the current grid, I would name Schumacher, Button and Vettel. This is a factor independent of their purely physical ability in driving the car. Furthermore, there is an obvious relationship between driver intelligence and the ability to maximise a car's performance through testing, relationship with engineers etc.

However, I think that intelligence in an F1 driver also redounds to his success in a more general way. If we accept that intelligence plays in a role in how able a driver is to moderate his responses to media pressure and to appraise in a realistic manner the way in which the mass media work, then intelligent drivers should seem to deal better with off-track problems. And intelligence goes hand in hand with an ability to establish mature and ultimately profitable relationships with political figures in F1, as well as the other drivers.

Consider last season: both Vettel and Schumacher came under media fire, Vettel for his relationship to and crash with Mark Webber, and other racing incidents; Schumacher for being generally off the pace in his return to F1 and for his incident with Barrichello and the wall in Hungary.

Here is Vettel's interview after Turkey 2010:


"I'm not the kind of guy to push all the blame on one person" - seems a generous attitude, and deflects attention from the question of his own responsibility for the incident.

Emphasises the harm done to the team, framing the incident as merely a negative outcome for himself and his team, rather than a confrontation between himself and Webber coming to a head

No sheepish expression, just looks displeased.

Dismissive nod towards the media at the end as though as to say, "Run along now."

I can't find Schumacher's interview after Hungary 2010, but I remember that he basically said that Barrichello talks a lot of nonsense, and like Vettel showed no submissive or resentful body language. Also, despite regularly dismal weekends for the first two thirds of last season, I never once heard him admit that he had been slow, or make a negative comment about his and his team's prospects for the next race. Eventually the media got tired of picking on him, since he wasn't crumbling under their pressure, and have been fairly positive towards him in general since Suzuka last year.

When Vettel was unhappy with Alonso's defensive tactics in Monza, he brought up the issue in the press conference and beforehand to Alonso, whilst framing it as "nothing serious". Alonso therefore knows that Vettel will be unhappy with similar moves in future, but that Vettel will keep his cool if Alonso does pull an unfair move and not harm his image with the media or the stewards, or his chances in the race, by doing or saying something rash - a good reason to race fairly with Vettel. Contrastingly, when Lewis is unhappy with someone's defending he complains immediately about it over the radio and then either fails to control himself before the media and comes across as an impotent whiner (Monaco) or is passive-aggressive and comes across as someone who can be trampled upon (Monza interview - where he was clearly unhappy with Michael's blocking but pretended not to be).

There are other options beside these emotionally immature extremes (a point that some Lewis fans have missed). For example in Monaco he could have stayed calm, made simple reference to Massa's "very hard defending" and suggested that "some" drivers need to look in their mirrors more often. He could then have said without being prompted that he looks forward to the next race where he thinks McLaren will be fast. If asked if he felt he was to blame for anything, he should have said that that is for the stewards to decide, but in his opinion it was normal racing. If he kept that up, soon enough the media would lose interest and pick on a more vulnerable target.

Whether or not any of these drivers was at fault or not, or had a legitimate grievance in any circumstances is irrelevant and need not be discussed. The point I am making is that Lewis's intelligence in his handling of the media leaves much to be desired, and it is this (rather than as some have suggested, his overtaking ability [!] or his ethnicity) that causes them to prey on him. The media likes nothing better than a fallen idol, and Lewis can continue to fall for a long time before they think about leaving him alone - even if his results improve - until such a time as he learns how to deal with them in the same way that the German drivers do.

If we generalise this lack of political nouse to his dealings with officials and other drivers, it is not hard to imagine how he has allowed himself to become the stewards' whipping boy and in this season alone Massa's and Maldonado's worst enemy (remember also that in 2008 he had Alonso vowing to help Massa win the title at all costs - might he not have smoothed their relationship at all?) If he can't make them like him, they should at least fear the consequences, or feel that it is futile to criticise him publicly (so we see that this issue is also intimately related to Lewis's media image). If they didn't think there was anything to gain by picking on Lewis, they wouldn't do so.

Just my two cents on the Lewis question!
 
Very well written and some excellent points (although I disagree on the Vettel-Webber incident as Vettel quite clearly blamed Mark for it).

Regarding this however:
If we generalise this lack of political nouse to his dealings with officials and other drivers, it is not hard to imagine how he has allowed himself to become the stewards' whipping boy
If a steward is influenced by what Hamilton says in the media, or how poor he is at dealing with F1 politics, then I would suggest that steward isn't worthy of performing the role.
 
If a steward is influenced by what Hamilton says in the media, or how poor he is at dealing with F1 politics, then I would suggest that steward isn't worthy of performing the role.

Absolutely true. But I expect Hamilton and his fans would like for him to win more often, and that is firmly in the realm of the real. There is no counterfactual F1 points championship where the stewards are of perfecty integrity, moral courage and rationality, much as it would be nice if there were.

Regarding the Vettel interview, the point is that he managed to frame the incident as a completely unexpected racing contact - "all of a sudden I lost the car" - implying his own blamelessness. He also says that he is not the type of person to attribute blame in a biased way, making him seem a fair person. So he has framed it as an incident in which he might, were he not of such moderate and even-handed disposition, blame someone. And of course the only such person he could blame is Mark Webber.

In other words, he made clear his feelings clear implicitly without feeding the media any incriminating and juicy story ("Vettel furious with Webber"), staining his character with the appearance of bias or making it seem as though he is psychologically vulnerable (i.e. by appearing unsettled by the incident).
 
Those comments only refer to much later after the incident though.
We all remember the finger twirling and accusations in the immediate aftermath.

So at the very least, Vettel was being disingenuous and deceitful, not to mention he was absolving himself of any responsibility, despite all evidence to the contrary.

Anyway, this is getting way off topic for this thread.

I agree with you on the stewards though, it has been a particular bugbear of mine for many years.
 
Those comments only refer to much later after the incident though.
We all remember the finger twirling and accusations in the immediate aftermath.

I remember the finger twirling. But when asked later to confirm what he meant by that, Vettel was noncomittal. IIRC he just said something like "that's a well known gesture".

It was a counter-productive thing to do, but that's heat-of-the-moment stuff and not really of a question of someone's understanding of and ability to deal with the media. The difference is that he didn't call Webber a "frickin' idiot", nor did he try to pretend that everything was fine and dandy when his body language would have clearly betrayed otherwise.
 
Vettel knew something no one else (outside of a very few select people on the RBR pit wall) knew when that interview was conducted.

He even alluded to it months later.

Vettel knew that Philbeam - Webber's race engineer - didn't convey a message to Webber to not fight Vettel too hard given that Hamilton (and Button) were closing in for a huge attack.

So, when Webber moved left and leant on Vettel, Vettel thought that was rather crazy for his teammate to do that. Hence the twirling of the index finger to the head.

But the media and the rest of the world did not know that - for whatever reason - Philbeam didn't convey that radio message. I'm sure Horner told Vettel right after...and then came media questions.

Vettel knew something and that's why he down played it. Team Orders were illegal at the time.

What does this have to do with Hamilton? If we're tying it into Hamilton's thead then one has to say that Vettel's had less incidents to deal with than Hamilton in 2011.

Clinton, you're criticizing Hamilton's reaction to the media...but the source are the incidents themselves.

Cut out the incidents and the media has less to think about.

In the end, I think Vettel has psychologically destroyed Hamilton this year.

In the Winter of 2008/2009 who was suppose to become the Youngest Double World Champion in History? Who's "Era" was it supposed to be?

That's right.

With every couple of Grand Prix races that pass, Vettel's dismantling Hamilton's elevated ruputation and elevating his own.

No pundit thinks Hamilton is the best driver of 2011.

Even Hamilton himself was dismissive of Vettel before the season started. Boy has that changed. I'm willing to bet money that Vettel's cast doubt in Hamilton's mind on at least one score:

That if Hamilton had any designs of going into Red Bull and beating Vettel straight up in RBRs, then he'd be a fool to think so.

It Ain't a No Brainer. Not any more.
 
There's no reason why we shouldn't respect Sebastian for what he is achieving. Neither should we be concerned about fans who would wish to worship the ground he walks on. But to suggest that Hamilton therefore somehow lacks intelligence is rather over the top. As with many other human characteristics no-one makes it into formula one without an extremely high level of intelligence and skill. Personally, I respect all of them and prefer some of them, but as a relatively neutral fan of no-one I find the veiled baiting of one fan-base by another rather tedious however well it may be buried in an interesting piece of writing. I say this because I detect a hole about to be dug and once again the Lewis Hamilton thread being used as my bloke / your bloke battleground. Forty-eight pages in this is getting nuts.

Of course, I could be completely mistaken but, hey, I'm only human too.:)
 
Maybe we could turn it into a leather bound book? ;)

I think for Hamilton the end of the season cant come quick enough, I think he needs the winter off to get his mojo back and come back stronger next year with a fresh start.
 
Clinton

Some good points in your first post on this

The type of intelligence you talk about has no real correlation to success on track. The fastest drivers are generally not the best at playing the political diplomatic game. Senna, Kimi jump to mind
Yes Seb is good at handling that side but his situation is in no way comparable to Lewis when it comes to the press or the scrutiny or hostility from some of the public. It's likely that his replies etc to the press have not been conditioned by the relentless unfairness

So I don't think we can excuse the stewards or say it's Lewis' own fault for not being Einstein

If you want to take this in track and tie it to a lack of tactical intelligence then it is obvious when Lewis is driving well he has astonishing tactical intelligence and awareness if a little over enthusiastic sometimes

Indeed how would he beat Alonso, a reknown 'intelligence' type driver, over a season? Luck?

Before we start campaigning for Seb for President, let's not forget that till very recently not all where convinced of his race craft and tactical intelligence,

When a driver has a slump in results everything looks bad and on a good run he looks perfect

IMHO
 
I apologise if that came across as "anti-Hamilton". I'm not particularly a fan of his, but I don't dislike him and I'd like to see him back to his best. He is certainly exciting. I'm not a huge fan of Vettel in particular either. I tried (but apparently failed) not to provoke an off-topic discussion about who was actually to blame for this or that incident, because it's beside the point I was making.

All I am saying is that, imho, although Hamilton is surely of above-average intelligence he doesn't seem quite as smart as one or two others out there like Vettel and Schumacher. Therefore despite being quite possibly the fastest driver of the three, prime for prime in a neutral car with no extraneous factors, he may not ultimately enjoy their success. That is because success in F1 depends also on the ability to form useful relationships with other people in the sport, and to be immune to the cynicism of the media circus. Even if Lewis were extremely thick-skinned about his media image, his media-management would still affect him in terms of how other drivers behave with him, how the stewards treat him, and probably how his team responds to him. And it doesn't seem to me that he's particularly thick-skinned in any case! Two examples of drivers who failed to fulfil their potential due to this kind of problem (imo) are Montoya and Raikkonen.

Montoya quote in a discussion of why he quit F1:
Your relationship with Ron Dennis was always bad?
The relationship with Ron was really good until when I broke my shoulder. I called him and I told him what happened. English press went out with another story and they started to make fun of Ron for believing my story. And he thought that I make him look in front of the world as an idiot. Since then, the trust wasn't the same.

Some of Lewis's fans seem to think that everything is going against him because people dislike him for various reasons such as his ethnicity, his overtaking ability or the fact that he is seen as having been born into F1 with a silver spoon in his mouth. I suggest that it probably has more to do with his lack of political tact and maturity, in full generality i.e. his relationship with team, other drivers, media and F1 officials. Could Lewis join Renault, tempt Adrian Newey to join him, and build a 5-time WDC-winning team? Can he nudge his team towards favouring him over Button? Can he turn Massa into a respectful competitor if not an ally? Can he develop a wave of media sympathy for his "exciting racing style, so often thwarted by biased stewards and jealous competitors"? That is what I mean by having political intelligence.
 
The type of intelligence you talk about has no real correlation to success on track.

It does seem to me that the likes of Schumacher and Vettel are intelligent on and off the track. For example in Mark Webber's Classic F1, he recalls how Michael spun off and rejoined behind his teammate Brundle. He then noticed from inside the cockpit that Brundle's rear tyres were graining, and pitted immediately - a decision which led to him ultimately winning the race.

Yes Seb is good at handling that side but his situation is in no way comparable to Lewis when it comes to the press or the scrutiny or hostility from some of the public. It's likely that his replies etc to the press have not been conditioned by the relentless unfairness

Vettel could easily have made himself vulnerable to the media's favourite game of knocking down someone from their pedestal, if he had dealt with his numerous problems last year less tactfully (the gesture in Turkey notwithstanding). I think you are getting the causality the wrong way around there!

So I don't think we can excuse the stewards or say it's Lewis' own fault for not being Einstein

No, but the reason for Lewis's problems is purely a matter of fact. It's not a question of right and wrong per se. On the other hand, I see F1 as the perfect blend of physical skill and engineering talent. As such, intelligence (or making the most of one's intelligence) is something I admire in the drivers. After all, media-management is a rather petty thing but team-building and so forth is definitely something to be admired.

If you want to take this in track and tie it to a lack of tactical intelligence then it is obvious when Lewis is driving well he has astonishing tactical intelligence and awareness if a little over enthusiastic sometimes

Personally I see Lewis as an amazingly fast driver and skillful overtaker on his day, but I can't think of many examples of his tactical intelligence. I suppose you could point to his great overtake of Raikkonen at Monza for example, but for me that is more of an instinctive thing (great ability to have, though).
 
Could Lewis join Renault, tempt Adrian Newey to join him, and build a 5-time WDC-winning team?

This is his 4 th year, how many drivers do you know did that at this stage, let alone those who come into the sport scrutinised like never before?

Mostly the early years are about winning and driving, later most drivers start to get political and are able to manage those around them strategically

I think I would rather watch a driver who does his talking on track instead of in contract meetings and political posturing or media manipulation

There are different types of intelligence but I just heard he has no political general or social intelligence

Let's hope he has another type then
 
China 2011 was an example of where he completely outdid all of his competitors tactically. He had already made the decision that won him the race on Friday.
Do you really believe a personal decision brings success? Extraordinary!
 
This is his 4 th year, how many drivers do you know did that at this stage, let alone those who come into the sport scrutinised like never before?

5th year surely?

I was intending a comparison to Michael, who had been in the sport 4 complete seasons when he joined Ferrari. It would be more or less an equivalent achievement, don't you think? Although in fairness Newey has said that Red Bull will be his last team.

I'm sure Lewis can get better at this stuff. I hope he does; as I said it's a shame to see him struggling on track and scowling through press conferences. He could probably use a better management team.
 
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