Grand Prix 2011 Hungarian Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Who was saying 2011 was boring?

It's amazing how a few non Red Bull dominated races can change the complexion of F1 and suddenly it's exciting again. However before we get too carried away, Vettel still holds a massive points lead and despite a poor (by his standards) race in Germany, he is still hot favourite as the F1 circus rolls into Hungary.

Hungary isn't known for it's exciting races (apart from 2006 possibly thanks to the weather) due to the dust bowl and lack of overtaking oppurtunities, but if 2011 is anything to go by, the phrase 'no overtaking' has been thrown out of the dictionary.

Despite recent set backs Red Bull will be favourites to bounce back at a circuit which suits them to a tee with weather conditions that will be beneficial to Vettel who struggled with grip at the chilly Nurburgring. However Ferrari and Mclaren have shown that they won't just stand still and let Red Bull walk to the championship with Hamilton and Alonso winning in the last 2 grand prix.

Indeed Mclaren seemed to be in trouble going into the German GP as they were off the pace of the Red Bulls and Ferraris, but in Hamiltons hands the car made a miracle recovery to not only take a front row position ahead of Vettel, but take the teams third win of the season after very stiff competition from Alonso and Webber. Is this the start of the established teams fightback?

Even beleagured Ferrari driver Massa has showed improved form recently with two 5th placed positions in the last 2 races but they could have easily been 2 fourth places had it not been for a strong defensive rearguard from Hamilton in Silverstone and a pit stop mess up in Germany which enabled Vettel to get past on the last lap. As Ferrari plan to take the fight to Red Bull, they will need Massa to take points off Vettel and Webber if Alonso is to have any chance of a miracle fightback.

Mercedes are in a league of their own at the moment, but not in a good way. They are faster than the likes of Renault and Force India, but slower than Ferrari, Red Bull and Mclaren and the 7th/8th place almost has a Mercedes name penned in if there aren't any incidents, (which knowing Schumacher is rare)

Renault have dropped off badly after a strong start to the season and after a crash from Heidfeld and a poor race from Petrov, they now find themselves picking up the scraps in the midfield for 5th place in the championship as Mercedes start to pull away from the black and gold outfit, maybe a tweak of the exhaust might bring them better fortunes in Hungary.

One person who drove a great race in Germany but hardly got any recognition was Adrian Sutil who drove probably the best race of the German drivers. 6th place after a strong qualifying will no doubt relieve the pressure that had been building on him and will show to Di Resta that he won't have things his own way at Force India and that Hulkenberg might have to wait a while for a race seat.

No doubt that there won't be any uncertainties about the weather this weekend as more often than not Hungary provides a race weekend with 30 degree sunshine with not a cloud to be seen, apart from the 2006 race which was notable for Jenson Buttons first win in the Honda.

For Galahads superb circuit write up see here http://cliptheapex.com/pages/hungaroring/

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Well on a damp track they would clearly do more laps. It wasn't just me that predicted it. Most of the teams predicted it. Of the front runners, it was in fact only Alonso and Hamilton's teams that got it drastically wrong.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Why wasn't he quicker?

Because he's not an alien android that's got an umbilical cord attached to the car and to every millimetre of the track?

Why was he put on a riskier strategy when the pitstop differential was 2 laps (HAM L 40; BUT l 42)?

Further, You're theory about compound diffs in practice got shot when Vettel overtook Alonso for P3. Vettel was on the harder, Alonso on the softer. So much for your theory about the softer being faster by 0.8-1.3 seconds than the harder, eh? Again, this was the race, not practice.

Did or did not Vettel over-haul Alonso for P3 while he (Vettel) was on the Prime/Softs while Alonso was on the Options/Super Softs?

Yes or No? There's only one answer!

According to you, Alonso should have pulled away at a second a lap from Vettel. Why didn't he?

 

[Slyboogy]

Great race...surprised by the winner though.

The McLaren seems the better all package, in qualifying and in race. Button's performance seemed to confirm that. Red Bull seem to be have taken a step back, in qualifying and race. Ferrari have are not so good in qualifying than the other two, but race pace is there.

Also, good race for Massa in a way, after spinning, then getting his strategy screwed an pitstops aswell (do they ever go right for him these days? ) he still finished 6th and came through the field a few times.

Good drive from di Resta aswell, great drive for Buemi as I have already mentioned.

The front 4 baffle me though

Hamilton made mistakes, talk about the strategy didn't look bad at first, McLaren split the strategy at least they didn't put both drivers on the Super softs. Vettel, looked as if he wasn't comfortable with the car in the wet, but he took out 5s out of Button towards the end, his strategy for a few stops wasn't up to scratch I have to say. Button, he was always in the mix wasn't he? Wouldn't say it was a splendid drive by him like the BBC did...luck seems to come his way during wet races, but he did look strong the whole weekend. Alonso, full of mistakes, wrong strategy like Hamilton's...yet ends up 3rd??

Verdict on Hamilton's penalty? I thought straightaway it was going to be given as while he spun and tried to correct it three cars went by, and one had to take avoiding action, the new rule in place for this season meant surely he was going to get one. I am quite surprised by the reaction from some here, because if that was a backmarker doing that while the leaders came through I am sure no one would have given him any sympathy at all.

And loved d'Ambrosio thinking that he was playing bowling in the pits, what made that so good was that he missed everyone....he really shouldn't be going bowling anytime soon...

 

[Brogan]

I am quite surprised by the reaction here

By some, not all.

 

[f1fansp]

Further, You're theory about compound diffs in practice got shot when Vettel overtook Alonso for P3. Vettel was on the harder, Alonso on the softer. So much for your theory about the softer being faster by 0.8-1.3 seconds than the harder, eh? Again, this was the race, not practice.

Did or did not Vettel over-haul Alonso for P3 while he (Vettel) was on the Prime/Softs while Alonso was on the Options/Super Softs?

According to you, Alonso should have pulled away at a second a lap from Vettel. Why didn't he?

That's a very good description of events.
Yes, Vettel did overtake Alonso when they were on the tyres described on Lap 44/45. But Alonso was on older SS (pitted lap 36, and was clearly losing 2s/lap) and Vettel fresh Soft (pitted lap 41).

You've described how Alonso (and similarly Hamilton), didn't pull out a gap on the Supersoft tyres; did you predict this too? And what was the explanation for this?

Description after the event. Not really the same as the prediction.

 

[Slyboogy]

By some, not all.

Edited

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

That's a very good description of events.
Yes, Vettel did overtake Alonso when they were on the tyres described on Lap 44/45. But Alonso was on older SS (pitted lap 36, and was clearly losing 2s/lap) and Vettel fresh Soft (pitted lap 41).

You've described how Alonso (and similarly Hamilton), didn't pull out a gap on the Supersoft tyres; did you predict this too? And what was the explanation for this?

Description after the event. Not really the same as the prediction.

What kind of post is this?

I responded to Galahad about him wondering why Hamilton didn't pull out at a rate of 0.9 or 1.1 second a lap on Button!

What does your post have anything to do with putting the leader of the race on a riskier strategy? Why did McLaren put Hamilton on one compound and then put Button on a different compound within only 2 laps?

According to you, McLaren had 4 laps of Alonso data...and Alonso wasn't doing much on those Super Softs.

Listen, my friend, this isn't "after the event"-type stuff. Many of us questioned this during the race.

The spin was a result of stupidly placed and unneccessary pressure by McLaren itself and you won't change my mind on it.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Why did McLaren put Hamilton on one compound and then put Button on a different compound within only 2 laps?

According to you, McLaren had 4 laps of Alonso data...and Alonso wasn't doing much on those Super Softs.

This is indeed puzzling, even if the original plan was for Lewis to 4 stop, he was not really using up his tyres quicker than Button and had track position 7 seconds ahead of second place
It was not neccesary to split them like that, another example of Whitmarsh's McLaren unable to deal properly with fluid situations and to use common sense and vision.

 

[EvilWhippet]

Evil, do you disagree?

Remember, as well, that having an increased number of pit stops also increases the chances of an error in the pit lane. Even a tiny error. So that leaves the team and Hamilton with no margin for error.

You're asking a guy to pound out a minimum 11.5 seconds in about 13 laps over the 2nd fastest guy in the race and giving him no room for any mistake...and then your asking your pit crew to be absolutely perfect yet again when - as everone here is well aware - there's an error or delay at virtually every race of some magnitude during those tyre stops.

Why do that when YOU DON'T HAVE TO!!!

What kind of foolish thinking is that? Again, do you, Evil, disagree with what i've said here?

Hamilton came in on 40; Button on 42. You're expecting a lot of Hamilton to make up 8 to 9 tenths a lap in tricky conditions. That's way too extreme a level of pressure...and that's putting the lead car in a riskier strategy unneccessarily so.

Not about my opinion, just worried you're going to cause yourself some form of Renault-esque overheat and firey blowout. Just take a lie down or have a fire extinguisher ready. There will be other races.

 

[Brogan]

Something else which hasn't really been discussed is Massa's total capitulation to Alonso...again.

He was ahead fair and square but as soon as Alonso recovered and got near to him again, he just moved off the racing line, lifted off the throttle and let him past.

Dreadful.

At least one team (McLaren) allows their drivers to race each other.

 

[Slyboogy]

Ray has already mentioned that....he has all aspects of the race covered.

 

[Fenderman]

Ray has already mentioned that....he has all aspects of the race covered.

Perhaps he has but I hadn't noticed. Yet.

Something else which hasn't really been discussed is Massa's total capitulation to Alonso...again. He was ahead fair and square but as soon as Alonso recovered and got near to him again, he just moved off the racing line, lifted off the throttle and let him past. Dreadful.

Doesn't need to be asked, told or given a strong hint anymore, does he?

At least one team (McLaren) allows their drivers to race each other.

Providing excellent entertainment as usual, I thought.

Why, I ask myself, is there no protracted discussion regarding the potentially 2nd most dangerous incident in the race? Doesn't the release of a car about to explode qualify as an "unsafe release from the pit" ? Alternatively one could ask: What regulation covers "having a car in the pit in an unsafe condition?"

I think Sportsman is exceptionally good at saying a hell of a lot with hardly any words at all. However, his photo's ought have sparked a stream of comment but, no, we're stuck! Apparently.

Let's hope tomorrow evening when I return from work there's a lot of other stuff being talked about. I'm tired of talking tyres.

 

[Slyboogy]

Perhaps he has but I hadn't noticed. Yet.

It was in another thread...

I'm tired of talking tyres.

Very inventive pun

 

[Jru]

What kind of post is this?
According to you, McLaren had 4 laps of Alonso data...and Alonso wasn't doing much on those Super Softs.
Listen, my friend, this isn't "after the event"-type stuff. Many of us questioned this during the race.

Ray I just have to pick you up on this, because what you say is innaccurate. Brundle said, at the time, Alonso is going 2.4 seconds per lap quicker (his words), the other teams will have to respond. McLaren responded, it turns out this was the wrong decision - but at the time it seemed that the primes would not last that long (I believe Kobayashi didn't manage 30 laps on them for example in the super easy going sauber)

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Something else which hasn't really been discussed is Massa's total capitulation to Alonso...again.

He was ahead fair and square but as soon as Alonso recovered and got near to him again, he just moved off the racing line, lifted off the throttle and let him past.

Dreadful.

Ray has already mentioned that....

Here, from the Vettel thread:

You're giving Massa a higher score than Vettel for binning the rear wing into a shark bite and for being a pussy by letting Alonso through unfettered?

I'm hoping Vettel does Massa a huge favour by pounding out an unassailable mathematical WDC points lead over Alonso sooner rather than later.

It's pathetic to watch Massa being such a short-sited pussy. Ferrari will dump him sooner or later for fresher meat and Massa needs to show other team managers that he can hold his own against Alonso on his day.

Fine, Alonso's more talented...but that doesn't mean he should have a Free Pass against the other Ferrari every single time. [Hamilton, by contrast, gets no free lunches from Button. So this makes me have less respect for both Alonso and Massa, not that either care what I think of them anyway.]

It's a joke watching Massa being Alonso's puppy dog. Hopefully Vettel can destroy Alonso's 2011 WDC hopes at Spa so Massa can be a man again and "race" against everyone at Monza!

Hey, Sebastian! Felipe' needs you!

 

[riskitall]

Great race...surprised by the winner though.

The McLaren seems the better all package, in qualifying and in race. Button's performance seemed to confirm that. Red Bull seem to be have taken a step back, in qualifying and race. Ferrari have are not so good in qualifying than the other two, but race pace is there.

Also, good race for Massa in a way, after spinning, then getting his strategy screwed an pitstops aswell (do they ever go right for him these days? ) he still finished 6th and came through the field a few times.

Good drive from di Resta aswell, great drive for Buemi as I have already mentioned.

The front 4 baffle me though

Hamilton made mistakes, talk about the strategy didn't look bad at first, McLaren split the strategy at least they didn't put both drivers on the Super softs. Vettel, looked as if he wasn't comfortable with the car in the wet, but he took out 5s out of Button towards the end, his strategy for a few stops wasn't up to scratch I have to say. Button, he was always in the mix wasn't he? Wouldn't say it was a splendid drive by him like the BBC did...luck seems to come his way during wet races, but he did look strong the whole weekend. Alonso, full of mistakes, wrong strategy like Hamilton's...yet ends up 3rd??

Verdict on Hamilton's penalty? I thought straightaway it was going to be given as while he spun and tried to correct it three cars went by, and one had to take avoiding action, the new rule in place for this season meant surely he was going to get one. I am quite surprised by the reaction from some here, because if that was a backmarker doing that while the leaders came through I am sure no one would have given him any sympathy at all.

And loved d'Ambrosio thinking that he was playing bowling in the pits, what made that so good was that he missed everyone....he really shouldn't be going bowling anytime soon...

but the mistakes happened after the ss were put on.the first mistake was putting the ss on,thats when things started to go wrong for lewis.also looking at the lap times of those on softs before lewis was put on ss when he should have been put on softs shows that lewis was never going to be able to pit again and still go on to win the race,so putting softs on hamiltons car actually would have made more sense since pitting him again would have lost him more time than doing the final stint on softs.and it was the team who chose to put ss on hamiltons car and softs on buttons,that handed the win to button,not the spin or drive through,this is clear to see.the track was cool enough for lewis to do his last stint on softs.also dont forget how quick lewis was on hards in the last race on his final stint,he was as quick as those on softs.
it wasnt the mistakes that lost lewis the race it was the strange decision to put ss on his car.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

it wasnt the mistakes that lost lewis the race it was the strange decision to put ss on his car.

Very true, everyone made mistakes, it was the customary McLaren naivety at work

 

[Hamberg]

I'm about to have a female moment but need to ask the question. Is it more difficult to drive in wet conditions on the option or prime? Or does it make no difference given they are both slicks?

 

[Cookinflatsix]

One is less able to obtain the full advantage from the options in wetter conditions, the durability of the primes might make them drop off in performance later than the options but apart from that drivers needed to be told what tyres they were on. So not much difference, not like inters

 

[Brogan]

It depends I think is the best answer to that.

On paper, the super soft should be better, but as we saw yesterday, that wasn't the case.