Wins rather than points

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff Member
Oh dear...

So basically the medals system has been half implemented.

Hopefully this will be reversed before next season and a revised points structure will be put in place instead.
Or is this half-baked system in place now for the 2009 season? :o
 

Galahad

Not a Moderator
Valued Member
It's coming in immediately, Brogan.

I hate it. They're still going to persevere with the points system, so inevitably we'll have the Champion On Wins and the True Champion with the most points...

It has never been done this way in any major championship, to my knowledge. If they think the drivers aren't trying hard enough perhaps they need to look at the cars and circuits, rather than the points system?
 

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff Member
No, no, no, no, no, no, nooooooooooooooooooooo

Absolutely dreadful decision >:(

Driver A wins the first 6 races and has 11 retirements and is the WDC with 60 points.
Driver B wins 5 races and comes 2nd in 12 races and is runner up with 146 points.

Ludicrous!
 

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff Member
On the upside, if McLaren are able to sort their apparent issues mid-season then in theory Lewis Hamilton could still defend his WDC.

Every cloud has a silver lining I suppose although given the choice I'd rather stick to points even if it did mean McLaren are out of it this year.
 

cider_and_toast

Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex
Staff Member
Premium Contributor
Now correct me if I'm wrong but if wins are going to be counted first and then points after then here's an over looked effect from last season if we were to apply these rules.

Robert Kubica - 1 win 3 seconds 3 thirds final score 75 points would now be leap frogged in the standings by Fernando Alonso with his 2 Wins and 1 second final score 61 points !!

Lower down the order we also see:

Vettel - 1 win final score 35 points and Kovvy 1 win, 1 second and 1 third final score 53 points both leap frog Nick Heidfeld who didn't score a win but had 4 second places and scored 60 points. >:(

I just don't get it.

The final table from that season is would now read:

Massa - 6 wins, 2 seconds, 2 thirds - 97
Hamilton - 5 wins, 2 seconds, 3 thirds - 98
Kimi - 2 wins, 2 seconds, 5 thirds - 75
Alonso - 2 wins, 1 second - 61
Kubica - 1 win, 3 seconds, 3 thirds - 75
Kova - 1 win, 1 second, 1 third - 53
Vettel - 1 win - 35
Heidfeld - 4 seconds - 60
Trulli - 31
Glock - 25

(unless of course glocks one second counts more than Trulli's one third in which case they woul switch and Nelson Jnr would move up over both glock and webber even though he only scored 19 points !!!! )

Come on, just look at that table !!! Is that a fair reflection of the season. Leave aside the Lewis / Massa thing because they performed to expectation all season (i.e. they were expected to be fighting for the title). Would Alonso really deserve to be ahead of Kubica over a whole season? Really?

Once again the sport of F1 shoots itself in the foot just when it seemed to be heading in the right direction. I firmly believe this rather pointless rule change was a case of dear old bernie and max reminding FOTA who really wags the dog.

:givemestrength:
 

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff Member
I think it's just 1st place that is decided on wins c_a_t.
All other places and the WCC are decided on points alone.

It really is a half-baked nonsensical points system and one can only hope it is dropped as soon as possible.
 

cider_and_toast

Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex
Staff Member
Premium Contributor
Thanks for that Bro, :thumbsup:

As you've said, it still makes a mockery of the whole system.

We may as well return to the dropping so many results system of 20 odd years ago.
 
I never thought that this stupid idea would actually be introduced! Even if it is in a half-baked "only counts for deciding the champion" way.

Surely what we'll see now is far less reliability and consistency? Push your engine to its limit in one race to try and get the win and just write-off the other two races using the same engine.

I forsee possibilities like:
Driver A - 5 wins, 1 eighth, 51 points = WDC
Driver B - 5 wins, 50 points = 6th place in the championship behind four other drivers who were more consistent and scored over 50 points but with only 0 to 3 wins each.

Are Max and the FIA so upset at Hamilton winning that they're determined to create a situation where they can try to devalue his Championship by saying he wouldn't have won under the current rules?
 
I was talking about this over beer last night and we came up with all sorts of stupid potential scenarios.

For instance, to expand slightly on my previous example:

We could get to the last race of the season with two drivers on 5 wins and 50 points each. Whichever one of them finishes highest in the points will be WDC, but whichever one of them is beaten will finish 6th in the WDC! Meanwhile Driver C has 3 wins, 9 second places, etc, total of 115 points, twice as many as the two of them put together, and cannot win the WDC with only one potential win left. But he is guaranteed 2nd place behind one of the other two drivers and will beat whichever of them doesn't win!

So poor old Driver B is leading the final race on his way to fame and glory when his engine goes pop, Driver A moves up to 8th place for 1 point on the last lap, wins the WDC and Driver B has lost the Championship by 1 point and come 6th in the Championship at the same time.

i'm sure my friends came up with some equally daft examples but I can't remember what they were now...
 

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff Member
Well the most extreme example is that a driver could win the WDC on the lowest score!

Let's say driver A wins 2 GPs and retires in the other 15 which will give him a total of 20 points.
Fifteen other drivers all win a race each and then score in every other race giving them all points more than 20.
The 4 remaining drivers don't win a race but do score more than 20 points.

An extremely unlikely scenario but the driver who has finished least races and on least points would be WDC under this new system.
 

cider_and_toast

Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex
Staff Member
Premium Contributor
Another factor here is that as far back as I've been watching F1 (mid 80's) I can only remember a handful of races where the lead driver was succesfully chased down by the eventual race winner. The one that comes to mind was Mansell and Piquet at the Brit GP (I've got a feeling it was 87) where Mansell pitted for tyres after picking up a puncture and then came out 30 Seconds behind Piquet with less than 20 laps to go and chased him down to overtake him on the last but one lap to go on and win.

Lets be honest these type of races stick out because they are the exception not the norm. I don't believe even with this ridiculous scoring system that anything will change. It's easy to say "oh this will make the driver in second push harder for a win" but it isn't as easy as that. This suggests that at every race last season the guy in second wasn't trying his hardest to race. It's always makes me smile when the head mechanic for a driver comes on the radio and says "XXX you are 5 seconds behind YYY push now push". If I was the driver I think I would respond with some colourful language and enquire what exactly he thought I was doing and if he could do any better would he care to change places.

Back to my original point, The last lap battles are so few and far between in F1 that I can't see any noticeable effect coming from the claim "it will make drivers push harder". I just don't think it's that simple. Also lets not forget that while it is supposed to make the driver in second push harder what do they assume that the driver in front is going to do?? It's not exactly like some computer game where you can set a handicap so the guy behind is always faster than the leader until he overtakes him. If you are out front and get the call that your rival is picking up a few tenths here and there I think you are going to do something about it aren't you??

:givemestrength:
 

teabagyokel

#dejavu
Valued Member
So, Maximillian, Bernard, an explanation of a few points would be a good idea!

  1. If increasing the incentives for 1st Place will solve everything, does that mean that last year no-one was trying to win races? Are you as bloody stupid to think that? Looking at Ecclestone's own F1 career, I think he would have got 27th Place in qualifying for the 1958 Monaco GP if he had the incentive of actually qualifying. Pity you weren't trying, eh, Bernard?
  2. You say, Benard, that the new system could help Jenson Button win a Formula One WDC? So, (i) how could "wins only" help a driver who has won 1 race in 9 years, yet has picked up 232 points in that time, and (ii) is F1's raison d'étre to help Jenson Button? Also, Jenson himself seems to disagree with the system. Some people don't know when you're being kind to them...
  3. Lewis Hamilton won 6 races last year, more than Felipe Massa; he was robbed of the Belgian GP, and if this was the rule, the Championship, for overtaking. How on God's Green Earth can this new pea-brained system encourage entertainment if that can happen?
  4. Were you sprung into power to represent the teams, Bernard, or was the FISA-FOCA war a figment of everyone else's imagination? Only one team boss [Briatore] has backed the scheme. Why would Briatore join Ecclestone's side? Any vested interests there? I'd like to take this opportunity to congratulate QPR for being the only football club to become worse since being taken over by a billionaire... FOTA are the new FOCA, watch your back!
  5. Mr. Moseley, what qualifications have you got to decide this? Your father was only Hitler's British Best Friend (if Paris Hilton can, Hitler can) and you have shown disturbing signs of what the majority of us would call "fascism". You are a dictator, and all dictatorships fall due to their own arrogance and stupidity at the end of the day! Look at Hitler - "Germany has declared war on the United States". I'm not sure if its your Pearl Harbour moment, but it still be stupid mate!
  6. Who pays the money for F1? Is it the fans and the corporations? Have you just upset both? Where will your cash come from then? Are QPR on the way to the BSP?

Other than that, its great!
 

Speshal

World Champion
Valued Member
I can't really add much more to the debate than you guys have, save to say I was really looking forward to this season and then they go and pull this one out of the bag........... >:(

I'll refrain from swearing but suffice to say I'm f*@!?&g f*&%$d off with the whole idea - I much preferred FOTA's proposals for 12, 9, 7 etc. instead of Bernie's medal system "without the medals"

Are they really trying to alienate the fans?

:givemestrength: :givemestrength: :givemestrength:
 

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff Member
Well it looks as if the FIA have been caught out by their own rule book.

The Formula One Teams' Association says the FIA's decision to change the scoring system for 2009 is invalid and cannot be enforced.

FOTA - which proposed an alternative points system but saw it rejected by the FIA World Motor Sport Council - claims that Formula 1 regulations do not allow such a change so close to the season unless all the teams are in agreement.

How ironic ROFL

More here: FOTA says points change is invalid
 

teabagyokel

#dejavu
Valued Member
So are you telling me that Renault voted to ban the mass-damper system? It all seems a bit suspicious to me. But its great that the real world has got one over on B&M!
 

Speshal

World Champion
Valued Member
I'm slightly aggrieved by this quote from Bernie when he was discussing the medals for 2010 (again)

"Absolutely - if you go to the athletics and look at the 100m you're not looking at the guy that's second, you're looking at the winner,"

Don't all the entrants for the 100M final not go through heats first?

3 Heats - the first 3 chaps go through to the final - 9 people in the final - the chap that came 3rd in his heat wins the final beating 2 others that came first in their heats, the winner of the final is the winner - his analogy it makes no sense (then again my explanation probably doesn't either LOL )

Surely that is awarding consistency through your regional, National and then International finals?
 
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