Jos the Boss
Champion Elect
You get another chance of promotion though! But yeah it is retarded!
Too Many Points Awarded?
- Thread starter RasputinLives
- Start date
You get another chance of promotion though! But yeah it is retarded!
Wombcat
Podium Finisher
I don't think either. With the 1996 points system the standings would have been:
The three topteams taking virtually all the points and some leftovers for the others. They all combined would only beat Massa!
Although i see I made a mistake and Massa didn't score a 2nd place, so he finishes with 17 points instead of 23.
Jos the Boss
Champion Elect
Schumi beat Rosberg! Let's keep this one!
Sorry, but 2011 is the lowest number of Top Six Finishers since 1990:
It would be nonsense for a World Championship with only 13 scorers. Under the Top Six rule there would have been 5 points available all season to people not driving a Renault. Those kind of figures have not been seen in the WCC since the Sixties!
It would be nonsense for a World Championship with only 13 scorers. Under the Top Six rule there would have been 5 points available all season to people not driving a Renault. Those kind of figures have not been seen in the WCC since the Sixties!
Yes, but the points system should be flexible to keep up with the nature of modern F1, and I think the points system should be there to decide the top 10 in the Championship, as those are the teams whose future is dictated by their Championship position.
Alonso in front of Webber? Schumacher in front of Rosberg? Petrov in front of Heidfeld? Sutil slides down the list? I'd take that one. I see what you mean about being only 13 scorers but can't you see the drivers who pull off the more incredible results get far more recognition? This way Kobi's brilliant 5th place in Monaco ranks him the same status as Sutil too excellent drives to 6th place? seems fair to me. In the current system Sutil gets rank higher than most by picking up a bunch of 8ths and 9ths and not taking it to the top teams?
I keep saying and maybe I'm missing something don't you think with less points on offer the middle teams might push their cars a bit more in order to take it to the top teams who in turn would have to push themselves a bit more to insure they don't lose out thus eliminating the safety zone that exists with the cars at the moment?
Wombcat
Podium Finisher
In the current standings Alonso was beaten by Webber by one point. In this one he beat Webber by one point. They both had one win and 9 more podiums (although Alonso had more 2nd places). It makes them swap places, but it's hardly a landslide. Anyway there's no exceptional results that make this a better scoring card. Their results are pretty much comparable. You could argue that Alonso did a better job with the Ferrari than Webber with the Red Bull, but that's hard to put into a scoring system.
In beating the top teams the results of Schumacher and Rosberg are pretty comparable. And Rosberg was more consistent. Schumacher in the revised standings lucks out because his DNFs (which were often due to his own faults) don't matter as much as in the actual standings (he loses less points with a DNF).
In the actual standings Petrov also is in front of Heidfeld, so no difference there.
No, I can't see that more incredible results get more recognition, because as i describe above, the differences are not so great as you make them seem. Besides that a championship is not just about incredible results, but also about consistency. In the 2nd half Kobayashi didn't score, so he performed poorly there (or the car of course). Over the season the Force India's were better than the Saubers, and that should be rewarded in a championshipstanding. For exceptional results in a race there are the race results.
How many times did Sutil on a level playing field finish in front of one of the top 5 championship guys? Zero. How many times did Kobi do it? The once at Monoco! I'd rather see my driver go for it and risk his place challenging the front runners rather than being content to let them go and notch up the lower point finishes which exactly what Sutil did most of the season. Anyone remember him jumping out the way for Lewis at Singapore? Yes I know its smart and yes I know its the sensible thing to do but its all a bit dull isn't it? Thats why I think the top 10 scoring point finishes just incourages the middle teams not to have a go at the front runners which to me is a shame.
Never knew Monoco was a place!
The safety car helped him out a bit, and with Hamilton taking himself and Massa out of the equation elevated him up further, and was a result of him "finishing in front of the top 5 championship guys". Not only that, Perez was looking stronger than him the whole weekend, and is known to be the better out of the two when it comes to preserving the tyres. I like Kobayashi, but the 5th place came in a lot of circumstances which fell in his favour, of course he did great to perserve his tyres, therefore lucked into a free pit-stop, but his pace was good.
And both of Sutil's sixth place finishes where at Germany and Brazil, don't remember anything drastic happening in those races, no safety cars either. He finished ahead of both Mercedes drivers in Germany and was the last one on the lead lap while his team-mate finished thirteenth.
In Brazil, again finished ahead of both Mercedes' and his team-mate, the collision between Schumacher and Senna might have helped him gain a position, Senna was always going backwards in that race, but Schumacher was looking quite good.
I remember Kobayashi a fair few times letting faster cars through without a fight, and was mentioned in commentray once or twice.
Il_leone
World Champion
Is there too many points ? Interesting as I've seen the scoring system changed three times
From
1991 where the winner gets 10pts instead of 9pts and the rule was changed to every race counts from the 11 out of 16 so this gave more incentive for the win so
from
9-6-4-3-2-1 to 10-6-4-3-2-1
this stood perfectly until 2003 after witnessing one of the most boring one sided championships where Ferrari backed their main driver despite having the best car with their second driver not allowed to challenge leading to the biggest margin between 1st and 2nd of 67pts at the time
In 2003 Bernie decided to tweak the points where it was decided instead of the top 6 the top 8 would score points because it was felt that midfield teams like Sauber, BAR and Jordan would not score any points given most of the time the front 3 teams then dominated the field - Ferrari, Mclaren, and Williams with Renault getting into the mix now and then
The significance was though it stopped Schumacher running away with the title with the system being 10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1. This changed the emphasis from going for the win to consistency more . This was proven by Raikkonen consistently scoring 2nd places and much to the annoyance of Schumacher who had to win 4 races I think and it took until race 7 to lead the championship
this did provide a championship decider until the last race
However in 2004 - Schumacher and Ferrari having worked out that the best way to maximise was to start from pole therefore run low fuel for first race stint in quali which meant it was another utterly dominant season with no real challenge
the scoring system did provide some championship deciders in 2006, 2007, 2008
When the new scoring system was introduced in 2010 to the top 10 this was after Bernie tried to push through his MEDALS idea on awarding due to MOST WINS then points to decide the rest....he was left red faced when the rule book stated the teams have 20 days to appeal against new regulations three days before the 2009 season so it reverted back to the2003 points system
2010 points system awarding down to 10th because BErnie thought if the money to teams was based on top 10 so should the points
It may look a lot but consider this to MotoGP which rewards points down to 15th with less entries and the last few seasons its been the case of just show up to score points in MotoGP
The new points supposedly has been uplifted by a factor of roughly 2.5
from
1st 10 to 25
2nd 8 to 18
3rd 6 to 15
4th 5 to 12
5th 4 to 10
6th 3 to 8
7th 2 to 6
8th 1 to 4
then
9th 2
10th 1
Whilst its supposedly easier to score points now at least there is parity restored at the front where there is more reward for the driver who wins over 2nd place which there was not in the 2003 system
where previously it would take a driver who was 10pts behind needing to win 6 consecutive races if the guy in front just finished second all the time before being overhauled
where as now
it would take a driver who was 25pts behind needing to win 4 races in a row to overhaul the guy in front if he finished 2nd everytime
The 2003 points system was a real hinderance to Kimi Raikkonen despite having the fastest car could not close back to Alonso
From
1991 where the winner gets 10pts instead of 9pts and the rule was changed to every race counts from the 11 out of 16 so this gave more incentive for the win so
from
9-6-4-3-2-1 to 10-6-4-3-2-1
this stood perfectly until 2003 after witnessing one of the most boring one sided championships where Ferrari backed their main driver despite having the best car with their second driver not allowed to challenge leading to the biggest margin between 1st and 2nd of 67pts at the time
In 2003 Bernie decided to tweak the points where it was decided instead of the top 6 the top 8 would score points because it was felt that midfield teams like Sauber, BAR and Jordan would not score any points given most of the time the front 3 teams then dominated the field - Ferrari, Mclaren, and Williams with Renault getting into the mix now and then
The significance was though it stopped Schumacher running away with the title with the system being 10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1. This changed the emphasis from going for the win to consistency more . This was proven by Raikkonen consistently scoring 2nd places and much to the annoyance of Schumacher who had to win 4 races I think and it took until race 7 to lead the championship
this did provide a championship decider until the last race
However in 2004 - Schumacher and Ferrari having worked out that the best way to maximise was to start from pole therefore run low fuel for first race stint in quali which meant it was another utterly dominant season with no real challenge
the scoring system did provide some championship deciders in 2006, 2007, 2008
When the new scoring system was introduced in 2010 to the top 10 this was after Bernie tried to push through his MEDALS idea on awarding due to MOST WINS then points to decide the rest....he was left red faced when the rule book stated the teams have 20 days to appeal against new regulations three days before the 2009 season so it reverted back to the2003 points system
2010 points system awarding down to 10th because BErnie thought if the money to teams was based on top 10 so should the points
It may look a lot but consider this to MotoGP which rewards points down to 15th with less entries and the last few seasons its been the case of just show up to score points in MotoGP
The new points supposedly has been uplifted by a factor of roughly 2.5
from
1st 10 to 25
2nd 8 to 18
3rd 6 to 15
4th 5 to 12
5th 4 to 10
6th 3 to 8
7th 2 to 6
8th 1 to 4
then
9th 2
10th 1
Whilst its supposedly easier to score points now at least there is parity restored at the front where there is more reward for the driver who wins over 2nd place which there was not in the 2003 system
where previously it would take a driver who was 10pts behind needing to win 6 consecutive races if the guy in front just finished second all the time before being overhauled
where as now
it would take a driver who was 25pts behind needing to win 4 races in a row to overhaul the guy in front if he finished 2nd everytime
The 2003 points system was a real hinderance to Kimi Raikkonen despite having the fastest car could not close back to Alonso
Yes my Dyslexia does have a habbit of eventing new places.
My point wasn't that Kobayashi was some sort of hero to hold high but just that the current points system incourages settling for a more frequent smaller share of the spoils than going for the lions share.
The 2003 system was also not my favourite thing in the world - it took away exactly what making the points for a win 10 was suppose to acheive - making drivers push for the win and giving them the rewards for doing so. It is interesting that both Alonso's titles came under this system as he is the epitme of consistancy and has been these last 2 years at Ferrari but with the advantage for a win returned he's never managed to build up the leads he did in 2005 and 2006 due to constant podiums.
I am of course playing devil's adovacte in all of this. I know due to the PR and teams reputations its important to reward one and all for being in F1. It would not surprise me if the points system was adjusted to take it down to 12th and 15th before the decade is out. I'm just presenting the argument that this little olive leaf to the small teams which looks like the spoils are being shared is actually just incouraging the smaller teams to be content with what they've got and not look to rock the boat by giving the big boys a bloody nose every now and again.
I know the cry will come that this is due to the reliability issue and I agree that it plays a signifant factor but is it a coincidence under the new system last year the top 3 teams claimed all but 2 of the podium places in 2011?
landogeorgelewis1
Champion Elect
What would the standings have look like under the 10, 8, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 system?
Il_leone
World Champion
Not sure how they can justify going to 15th if they will only reward up to 10th place anyway
I think IRL the points system is something like 50-40-33-25-20 etc down to 10th and I don;t see how F1 can benefit going along this line.
As for Alonso's titles
-2005 was an example of consistency and it was difficult for Raikkonen to catch up each time
-2006 that was more the mass damper advantage because when that was banned along with some dubious decisions and duffed Renault strategies- Alonso began to feel the pressure
Some reliability issues may occur when the new engine regs come in, but they will soon be dialed out..I think I prefer cars to be reliable..
At least the points system is easier to follow than what they had in the late 1980's, when drivers could only use there best 11 results out of a 16 race season.
Il_leone
World Champion
I think the only person who was robbed under such system was Prost 1988 - 7 wins and 7 seconds vs Senna 8 wins , 4 seconds , 1 fourth and 1 sixth
The system encouraged drivers to go for the win but it was difficult to follow
So imaging what if F1 suddenly decided to go with Bernie's crazy idea of medals back in 2009 then?
Jos the Boss
Champion Elect
What was this medals idea?!
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