OK, so we all agree that riders have doped in the past and that they either are or aren't now.
Great event though, wasn't it?
Great event though, wasn't it?
The Tour de France
- Thread starter Speshal
- Start date
I don't feel "happy" for him in any kind of way. I know it hasn't been proven that he doped but the extraordinary performances in the last two years are a sure indicator that he is using performance enhancing drugs.
He was nearly kicked off the team, he was a nobody, and then, all of a sudden, he performances the way he did during this years TdF, and even last year, he could have beaten Bradley Wiggins.
Surprisingly, Froome fell sick two years ago, and has been on medication since, I see parallels to Lance Armstrong.
He was nearly kicked off the team, he was a nobody, and then, all of a sudden, he performances the way he did during this years TdF, and even last year, he could have beaten Bradley Wiggins.
Surprisingly, Froome fell sick two years ago, and has been on medication since, I see parallels to Lance Armstrong.
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He had some decent results prior to the 2011 Vuelta. Finishing 2nd in the British National Time Trial Championships in 2010; well, he would still lose to Wiggins in a time trial!
I believe that he is a good climber because he lived in both Kenya and Johannesburg - at high altitude. Nairo Quintana was second. You would expect the best operators at altitude to hail from altitude.
I'm not going to say he's not doping, but it serves no purpose to cast aspersions. If he is doping, it probably will come out and he'll then be sorry. If he's not, the questions ruin a clean rider's reputation.
I believe that he is a good climber because he lived in both Kenya and Johannesburg - at high altitude. Nairo Quintana was second. You would expect the best operators at altitude to hail from altitude.
I'm not going to say he's not doping, but it serves no purpose to cast aspersions. If he is doping, it probably will come out and he'll then be sorry. If he's not, the questions ruin a clean rider's reputation.
Kewee
Race Winner
Wombcat ...... Clenbuterol was used on livestock in a region in Spain. The meat from that livestock was imported into France and consumed by Contador and other athletes in different sports who believed it was safe.
The chances of being caught have risen dramatically. Cyclists can now be tested at any time during the year, including and especially during their training.
Your comment on Froome's time on the Ax 3 Domaines shows either a lack of knowledge of road cycling, or conveniently ignores many factors that are likely to have contributed to his stunning time, none related to doping. If you do have road cycling experience I shouldn't need to point out the factors that lead to his climbing power.
The chances of being caught have risen dramatically. Cyclists can now be tested at any time during the year, including and especially during their training.
Your comment on Froome's time on the Ax 3 Domaines shows either a lack of knowledge of road cycling, or conveniently ignores many factors that are likely to have contributed to his stunning time, none related to doping. If you do have road cycling experience I shouldn't need to point out the factors that lead to his climbing power.
"this is one yellow jersey that will stand the test of time", says it all for me. I cannot imagine for one second someone who is guilty, being so confident that they will never ever be caught, that they would think, let alone say these words in their victor's speech.
Kewee
Race Winner
Plutus .... Froome has suffered on and off with a parasitic illness called bilharzia. Tests showed it had returned in early 2012 and obviously needed treating. A persons performance levels will show huge fluctuations when they're having to recover from illness. Your suspicions are poorly founded, in fact they have no foundation at all and are certainly no indication that he has been involved in doping. It would be nice if you did a little homework before you throw such serious allegations at such a brilliant sportsman.
Wombcat
Podium Finisher
Did you read the report from the TA hearing? They tracked down the meat to the supplier, and it did not come from a region where they suspected use of clebuterol.
I'm following road cycling since 1990. Been doing it myself since 1992, I competed at quite a high level. Time and again they said that cycling is now clean, only to be proved wrong a few years later. Sorry, but I don't believe in clean cycling, or clean sport for that matter. It's still a great show, but that's what it is: entertainment.
Kewee
Race Winner
Wombcat .... It's absolutely obvious that cycling has not been clean, but I also don't trust all those responsible for testing. I'm also sure others will be caught cheating in the future but I also believe all those that won a jersey in this years Tour de France will be clean. I also believe Froome will go on to be a multiple winner of the tour and quite possibly the Italian and Spanish tours also and remain clean for his entire career.
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He never belonged to the top riders in the sport, and I don't think that alone could be put down to his illness.
But hey, maybe he has been clean his entire career and now all the other riders seem to have stopped doping, he can show us his skills.
In all honesty. You have to very naive to believe that the sport is clean. Certainly if a rider like Froome set a faster time than Armstrong, who was proven guilty of being on drugs at the time.
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What magical performances? These claims seem to be based mainly on one climb where he was the third fastest ever when being aided by a strong tailwind. His data has been passed to experts who confirm that his exploits have been at the top of the range but in no way show any of the features associated with doping.
For the first 14 years of his life he lived at altitude in Kenya, he thn moved to Johannesburg which is at an altitude of 5751 feet (according to Wikipedia). This results in a larger than normal chest and lung size (see numerous log distance running feats by Kenyan and Ethiopian athletes) which would almost certainly give him an advantage in the mountains.
Have a look at the "2007-2010:Early years" section of Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Froome, and you will see his development. He did have a big step forward after joining Sky but then they are such a well organised team who treat cycling as a scientific sport, everyone who joins them moves forward under their tutelage, including Wiggins and Cavendish (who still manages the odd good performance).
No-one can ever say with complete confidence that a sport is drug-free but cycling has been put under so much scrutiny that it would be foolish for a modern rider to attempt to circumvent the rules.
For the first 14 years of his life he lived at altitude in Kenya, he thn moved to Johannesburg which is at an altitude of 5751 feet (according to Wikipedia). This results in a larger than normal chest and lung size (see numerous log distance running feats by Kenyan and Ethiopian athletes) which would almost certainly give him an advantage in the mountains.
Have a look at the "2007-2010:Early years" section of Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Froome, and you will see his development. He did have a big step forward after joining Sky but then they are such a well organised team who treat cycling as a scientific sport, everyone who joins them moves forward under their tutelage, including Wiggins and Cavendish (who still manages the odd good performance).
No-one can ever say with complete confidence that a sport is drug-free but cycling has been put under so much scrutiny that it would be foolish for a modern rider to attempt to circumvent the rules.
You are assuming that there have been no advances made in other areas, of course.
Dave Brailsford has had remarkable success across all areas of cycling, sprint, pursuit, time trials and grand tours, maybe his techniques, science and professionalism, along with the large amounts of money poured in to the sport through lottery grants and sponsorship may have something to do with it.
I will be honest, cycling has lost the right to be given the benefit of the doubt, however, assuming that any cyclist who performs well must be doping I think is wide of the mark. and when does it all stop?
Innocent until proven guilty? why bother? after all, Lance Armstrong never had a positive test. The doping always seemed to be one step ahead of the testing. That said, the list of banned substances in cycling is huge, and there are always advances made in the testing.
Releasing power figures, and inviting WADA to have a look into the methods of training over an extended period (which they declined, stating it is not their mandate!?!) seem to indicate a clear conscience. Also, the different areas of success, including cyclists like Chris Hoy, Victoria Pendleton, Laura Trott, Mark Cavendish, Bradley Wiggins would mean a cover up on a far greater scale than US postal. Remember when Chris Boardman came on to the scene, with his flashy new bike, and a real new approach, and started winning stuff? a change of approach rather than a change of drugs ,made the difference.
How many teams test in a wind tunnel these days?
Seriously, I understand peoples scepticism, however, I do not agree with tarring Froome with the same brush as Armstrong, just because he performed well. I personally, am happy to believe he is clean, as I was with Wiggins last year. If I turn out to be wrong, well, I will be very disappointed. However, I would rather be disappointed in the future than assume that anyone who does well in cycling must be doping.
Dave Brailsford has had remarkable success across all areas of cycling, sprint, pursuit, time trials and grand tours, maybe his techniques, science and professionalism, along with the large amounts of money poured in to the sport through lottery grants and sponsorship may have something to do with it.
I will be honest, cycling has lost the right to be given the benefit of the doubt, however, assuming that any cyclist who performs well must be doping I think is wide of the mark. and when does it all stop?
Innocent until proven guilty? why bother? after all, Lance Armstrong never had a positive test. The doping always seemed to be one step ahead of the testing. That said, the list of banned substances in cycling is huge, and there are always advances made in the testing.
Releasing power figures, and inviting WADA to have a look into the methods of training over an extended period (which they declined, stating it is not their mandate!?!) seem to indicate a clear conscience. Also, the different areas of success, including cyclists like Chris Hoy, Victoria Pendleton, Laura Trott, Mark Cavendish, Bradley Wiggins would mean a cover up on a far greater scale than US postal. Remember when Chris Boardman came on to the scene, with his flashy new bike, and a real new approach, and started winning stuff? a change of approach rather than a change of drugs ,made the difference.
How many teams test in a wind tunnel these days?
Seriously, I understand peoples scepticism, however, I do not agree with tarring Froome with the same brush as Armstrong, just because he performed well. I personally, am happy to believe he is clean, as I was with Wiggins last year. If I turn out to be wrong, well, I will be very disappointed. However, I would rather be disappointed in the future than assume that anyone who does well in cycling must be doping.
British Cycling / Sky Procycling are for me the closest thing to an F1 team outside F1. I really admire their scientific advances and the way they keep looking for the 1% gains
Kewee
Race Winner
Plutus ... If you showed the curtesy of reading my postings before accusing me of being naive you'd see that I said it was obvious cycling has not been clean and that others will be caught cheating in the future. The difference between our views are, you appear to believe if some cheat all cheat. I believe cycling is making very real efforts at cleaning up the sport and I believe all the top riders who have just completed the Tour will be clean. I'll repeat what I posted earlier, my belief that Froome will become a multiple Tour winner and will stay clean for the length of his career. You need to read Bill Boddy's posting and take note of the points he makes. It's also worth noting that Froomes stunning time in that single climb was well planned, he was unable to repeat such a dominant performance on the other climbs on that stage. If you analyze his tour performances carefully your argument doesn't hold up.
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Wombcat
Podium Finisher
Pretty much every team. Or they have a decent alternative: testing positions on the track. Which may be even better, because you can actually pedal, and with measuring your power output you can test performance and make comparisons. Which is kinda hard in a windtunnel. It may be that with the most aerodynamic position you lose performance.
Funny enough it was told during this tour that Froome had his first windtunneltest only two months ago.
A practice started by British cycling, I believe.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/jul/21/tour-de-france-team-sky-froome
Simply put, I believe that all the changes that Dave Brailsford has made, and all the new methods he has put in place have reaped benefits, as is evident by the performance of cyclists in all areas not just grand tours.
If you want to believe that the only reason for the performance is doping, thats fine by me, but personally, I cannot help but think that stating that winning performance can only be due to doping is not my bag.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/jul/21/tour-de-france-team-sky-froome
Simply put, I believe that all the changes that Dave Brailsford has made, and all the new methods he has put in place have reaped benefits, as is evident by the performance of cyclists in all areas not just grand tours.
If you want to believe that the only reason for the performance is doping, thats fine by me, but personally, I cannot help but think that stating that winning performance can only be due to doping is not my bag.
Ps. My pop-corns clean. Promise!
Wombcat
Podium Finisher
When Menchov was cycling for Rabobank he already did windtunneltests to improve his position. That was somewhere in 2008. And they weren't the first team doing it. I'm pretty sure Armstrong already did it before that.
The first windtunneltest were probably british though, but with Boardman, to test his Lotus frame with which he took the world hour record. I remember reading about it and the article mentioning that they only really improved his aerodynamics by setting the handlebars a lot lower than usual. Which made me wonder if if was actually the bike that made the difference (as was promoted), but in fact the position.
Anyway, that was in the earlie nineties.
So it's not in that area that Sky are doing something new. Most notable 'new' thing they do is training consistently on wattage. But even that's not completely new. Vinokourov already did that.
The first windtunneltest were probably british though, but with Boardman, to test his Lotus frame with which he took the world hour record. I remember reading about it and the article mentioning that they only really improved his aerodynamics by setting the handlebars a lot lower than usual. Which made me wonder if if was actually the bike that made the difference (as was promoted), but in fact the position.
Anyway, that was in the earlie nineties.
So it's not in that area that Sky are doing something new. Most notable 'new' thing they do is training consistently on wattage. But even that's not completely new. Vinokourov already did that.
We're less than a week away from the start of this years TdF and this year it starts from my home town of Leeds.
I will be going to watch the start and I have a prediction which I want to ask the TdF experts about. If you look at the route map and the starting run I have a massive feeling that there is no way all the cyclists will make it around the 1st bend.
Do the riders start off at maximum power or is it a nice gentle ride to start with?
If they are starting with a fair bit of speed the 1st turn comes after a fairly narrow run down hill onto the A61 is going to be carnage and that is where I am planning on watching!
http://letour.yorkshire.com/stage-1/map
Street view link of that evil 1st turn.
One other thing, that part of Leeds is currently undergoing a massive redevelopment and they have just started demolishing the once iconic streets. Not exactly the image we want to be projecting across the globe.
Good job with your timing Leeds City Council!
I will be going to watch the start and I have a prediction which I want to ask the TdF experts about. If you look at the route map and the starting run I have a massive feeling that there is no way all the cyclists will make it around the 1st bend.
Do the riders start off at maximum power or is it a nice gentle ride to start with?
If they are starting with a fair bit of speed the 1st turn comes after a fairly narrow run down hill onto the A61 is going to be carnage and that is where I am planning on watching!
http://letour.yorkshire.com/stage-1/map
Street view link of that evil 1st turn.
One other thing, that part of Leeds is currently undergoing a massive redevelopment and they have just started demolishing the once iconic streets. Not exactly the image we want to be projecting across the globe.
Good job with your timing Leeds City Council!
So should I stand there expecting a pile up or should I walk up the hill to watch the actual start itself with the masses?