The Power of One

[RasputinLives]

hmmm well you can use that argument that the driver was the final part of the recipe for all of them really. Schumi quite famously tested the 95 Ferrari and stated he didn't know how Alesi and Berger had won the title.

I think its about time Vettel got some credit for his influence at Red Bull. I mean hands up here who thought he was going to be compeatung for titles when he moved there?

 

[FB]

I think we're getting side tracked. I don't, for one minute, think Vettel wasn't a major influence in the recent success of Red Bull but until he goes to another team and wins races and/or titles he won't meet the criteria I have set for drivers who lift a team. To use a more obscure example, Clay Regazzoni went to Ensign in 1981 and the team went from also rans to a team on the up, until Clay had that horrible accident at Long Beach. The influence of the driver in this instance was huge.

 

[The Pits]

RasputinLives I am a strong advocate of Vettel and his abilities, and his influence on the team is a matter for the record books.

The vision of Materschitz, the genius of Newey, and the management of Horner brought Vettel through the ranks, and to prominence, so he was a key player in the plan, rather than the instigator/glue, allowed to flourish in the correct environment, as opposed to forming the environment in the first place. Not saying that this is something he is not capable of, however in line with the topic, I think the Red Bull situation runs a lot deeper than the other examples provided.

 

[cider_and_toast]

I'd like to nominate Graham Hill. In joining Lotus in 1967 it was pretty much the equivalent of Button joining Mclaren, Lotus was Jim Clark's team and had been since 62. After Clarks tragic death in April 68 it was down to Hill to rebuild a shattered Lotus team and drag the team up off the floor. Hill it must be remembered, hadn't won a race for two years until this point. He then went on to win the next two and place himself firmly in position to challenge for the title which he would eventually take with a win at the final race of the season at Mexico. Having helped to develop the Type 49 into a world class F1 car he helped Lotus back onto the top step of the sport and paved the way for further years of success in 1970, 72 and 73. While it's clear that 68 would more than likely have been another title in the bag for Clark, it was Hill who achieved more than just taking a title that season.

 

[Mansell4Ever]

Oh I'm sorry, I did ment Suzuka. In Spa it was obviously not Alonso's fault. He was actually very lucky not to have been severely injured. I am not much of a fan of him but it was very scary to see. Never been to Toronto I'm affraid. Closest I've been must have been NY a couple of times.

 

[Bill Boddy]

Would anyone admit to having been to Toronto on here?

 

[Olivier]

Would anyone admit to having been to Toronto on here?

I would. In fact I am in Toronto right now

 

[RasputinLives]

Mansell4Ever ahh if you meant Suzuka then I take back the ponderous tone and don't worry about the Toronto thing you just came across a bit like a former poster here but can clearly see your not so will say sorry and welcome.

Still disagree with you on Alonso though. Think if he hadn't joined Ferrari they'd of had a mid 90s style fall down.

 

[Mansell4Ever]

To Rasputin Lives. Most people disagree with me when it comes to Alonso. But that is hardly a surprise since I live in Spain. Just as long as you do not pull the "everybody says Alonso is the best" argument like they so often do here I'm fine. I do not say Alonso is a bad driver. He is a very good and very fast driver. But coming into 2012 my point is the Ferrari was not as bad as people (namely Alonso himself) want us to believe. The 1.5 seconds happened at one qualy (not even at a race) and it suddenty became a mantra for the entire season. I am a Mansell fan and he was the kind of guy that would either win or fail to finish so I am not into the vulture style of driving Alonso displayed this year. Although he scored a lot of points, you cannot seriously expect a guy that only won 3 races to be WDC, no matter how unexpected those wins were (and he actually failed on a couple of less unexpected ones). I was ready to admit he would be a worthy winner if he would have gone to win in Brazil, but he wasn't even close despite the fact that everything played onto his hands (the rain or so Alonso's fans thought, the safety car when he was already 40 sec behind, Vettels first lap accident, Vettel's lack of power due to the damage, Vettel's pit stop with no radio warning, Hulkemberg's stop and go, faster Massa as a winger, etc.). Ironically, against the man's own opinion, I do not think this was his best season ever. I saw a much more aggressive Alonso back in the failed bids of '07 and '10 (not to say when he actually won in '05 and '06). He was a lot more exciting to watch back then. He became a spoiled brat that believes he is superior to everybody ever since he had to take the bitter pill in his second stint at Renault. He couldn't win a race but everybody had to bow down to his brilliant 5th places. When he went to Ferrari it was obvious he was going to win, not only he was the fastest driver, he was the best developer of cars and was in the most successful brand. It has been 3 years and I am . It has hubris written all over. Come on, this guy rode for McLaren and Ferrari and Vettel is the one that has to prove himself in inferior cars? All he did was win for the first time for TR and RB. Where were they before Vettel came along? But it is not fair, those were Newey's cars. Where were Newey's wins before Seb came along? It is ridiculous. This year Alonso behaved a lot more like a PR managing expectations than a racing driver (ninth on the grid, it was the best I could do and if Pat Fry does not agree I'll tweet everybody and tell how he is not doing his job properly). My feeling is Alonso knows he is at Ferrari and sooner or latter another championship will head his way so he'll keep on playing this game for as long as the press indulges. I like it because it gives Vettel the perfect motivation to come back again and again and clinch it. He is a ruthless machine that tries to win everything he possibilly can. Going for the fastest lap on the last lap of the race is just incredible, no one else dares to do it, and so called "experts" say it is childish. No it isn't. It's what people want to see, fast cars going as fast as they possibily can (then Alonso, that had settled for his position some 50 laps earlier bar mechanical failures from his competitors, says his car is oh so much slower). In a year where cars were so close to one another the guy that managed 4 consecutive wins should be hailed as the greatest (to my recall nobody else managed to pull even a double win) and a lot of people scorn him by saying with that car it was easy. No it wasn't. It never is. And Vettel's team mate finished 6th on the table. I rest my case.

 

[racecub]

Good article FB. Got me thinking, will my man do it at Mercedes??? Well he wouldn't at McLaren that's fairly certain, there he would forever be the child protege, fast, a flatterer of cars, but not alwys taken seriously, certainly not in the vein of a man who wants to make changes and drive a team forward. So from that point of view a move was inevitable. To remain would have meant more wins and maybe more championships but not the accolades and satisfaction that come from guiding and inspiring a team.
So will he at Mercedes? What strikes me about the drivers you chose FB was that they are all ruthless operators. Has Lewis got this? He cares what people think (not a good sign for a ruthless operator). He likes to play fair and rely on his driving, well that might have to change, but if he's hungry enough maybe it will, maybe he'll start putting number one first. Can he inspire a team? Well it seems that's happening at Mercedes just at the thought of him coming. Can he explain exactly what he needs to the engineers, work with them, help develop the car? I don't think he's had a lot of opportunity at that yet. Lots of questions. It will be fascinating to see if he does join that elite group of men, bring on 2013!!

 

[Olivier]

Mansell4Ever; Your case is based on guess work and preferences. I would understand why you wouldn't like the guy living in Spain and everything but I'll give you a fact that make the case for whoever thinks Alonso was the better driver this year: his car may not have been 1.5 seconds slower everywhere but was in fact not the fastest in any of the races. To have lost the WDC only for 3 points under this conditions is an indication that he has done a superb job.

 

[FB]

As I mentioned in the original article racecub, this is Hamilton's chance to build a team around him. If he steps up and takes this opportunity then he can look to be regarded as one of the greats, the big question is how long will it take. I think it's also a moment for Jenson Button to prove he can be a serious team leader at McLaren. He's ousted his biggest rival, time for him to step up to the crease and really lead the team.

 

[racecub]

Jenson has a superb chance to win the championship next year. And lead the team?he has some attributes that are required, so he might. But if you want to mention him in he same breath as Senna, Alonso, Schumacher, then sadly he lacks some of the inherent qualities that they have. Lewis has those qualities, it's only the team leadership that remains a question for him. I think team leadership is possibly more easy to attune to than outright speed and adaptability in less than perfect cars. So whilst Jenson has a fantastic chance to do well next year I can't see him jumping into the Alonso, Schumacher, Senna category, ever, but Lewis could.

 

[Mansell4Ever]

Hi Oliver. My motives are not a question of liking or not liking him. Most people in Spain didn't like him until he started to win. Alonso was never a likable character and I couldn't care less. Neither was Mansell, quite the opposite. The reason I say it is because some people want to make Alonso into what he definitely did not prove to be and as he gets older, he might never be: the driver of his time. I do not know what tomorrow brings but the looks of it right now is that there was a German dominating, then a bunch of guys won a few, then another German came and kicked ass again. Alonso won a couple in the middle? Well done baby! Hamilton won one, Raikonnen another and Jenson another. Massa came close. Bear in mind that Vettel won 3 and came second once in the last 4 years in what? Five complete seasons since he started?. That is what I call dominance. Your case is Alonso is better because he only lost by three points. Isn't that preferences and guess work? At least I choose stats where Vettel actually outperforms. Alonso lost by three points, 2 wins, 4 poles, some 30 overtakings and an obscene number of fast laps. Oh but he didn't have the fastest car. If he is so good he should have whatever car he wanted. Prost managed to get himself inside a Williams. Senna managed to get a McLaren and Schumi went to the car back then nobody wanted. Alonso drove a McLaren and now drives a Ferrari, isn't that the dream of every driver? Do you think Ferrari had the best car from 2007 to 2009? Still compare what Alonso and Kimi achieved and I'd say the Spaniard does not live to his legend status. I heard Alonso was offered both the Red Bull and the Brawn in its day. So why does he complain? But according to you a 3 point margin is not good enough for Vettel to be considered the best. Well, It's not like Vettel had the fastest car all season and Schumacher beat Kimi in 2003 by a meagre 2 points. Don't recall anybody saying Kimi deserved it on account of having more podiums. People want to see the guy that came second as the best? Go right ahead, but you do not have a lot of ground to stand. The guy was 42 points ahead. He lost them to a bloke who, incidentally, was also not riding the fastest car of the season but when he had a competitive car (by a very slight margin, we are not talking of the'02 Ferrari, the '92 Williams or the '88 McLaren, not even the '11 Red Bull) he bagged four races. Excuse me but I did not see anybody else doing that. And I'll add a something special: five races to go Alonso was still ahead. Ferrari scored more points on those five races than Red Bull did. And finally, so that this does not sound like Alonso bashing I restate what I said, I think Alonso was a lot better in 2007 or 2010. He won more races, had more poles and never had a 42 point lead to take it easy.

 

[Olivier]

Mansell4Ever I think you are mis-representing the facts. Anyway, nobody is trying to claim Alonso is "the driver of his time". Only that he was the better this year alone. When Alonso had the car at his best (not the fastest, mind you) he managed to get ahead by 40+ points. Then the development stopped and the car was not competitive anymore. Vettel made the best of th last quarter by catching up to him and winning, but had he been as his best all year round, he would have managed to beat the best of the rest by more than 3 meagre points. By the way as Senna can attest, you don't win a championship by scoring the most poles and fastest laps, you need to be consistent, specially with the championship being this long.

 

[Mansell4Ever]

Good morning Oliver. If I am mis-representing the facts could you please be so kind as to tell me where? I'd be more than happy to refrase or withdraw them (like it happened when I mistook Spa with Suzuka). When you say nobody is trying to claim Alonso is the "driver of his time", I must admit you were not. But the entry of this discussion by FB was on that subject. If by 2006, probably '07 it very much seemed the Alonso era was starting, by end 2012 its clear it didn't. At least not yet.

As for who was the best driver in 2012 we disagree and will not come to terms. There is no denying that, had Vettel been at his best the entire season, he would have won by a larger margin. But, if Alonso had been at his best the entire season he would have also won. Just because the man himself says he was nearly perfect all season long it does not make it true. He was not. He faltered at the end. Massa was clearly outperforming him and in those two last races he helped to place Alonso where he clearly did not deserve to be (so the advantage might had been larger than the those meagre 3 points). Like in 2010 when the going got though Vettel was stronger. By saying he only had a fabulous last quarter (it was more like a last third of the season but nevermind) you are acknowledging he had very little time to make up for such a large gap, placing his comeback amongst the most remarkables I've seen. That is what a lot of people do not want to admit. In a year where there were 7 winners in the first 7 races and 8 in 20 races only a guy managed to consecutively win and the best performance of the season came from those 4 consecutive wins, followed by a magnificient charge through the field at Abu Dhabi, a head-to-head-close-range-always-on-the-edge duel in Texas (briliantly won by Lewis but Vettel did put a magnificient fight) and another charge through the field in a damaged-undepowered car. Not from a sucession of thirds and second places evenly distributed through the year. This, as you very well put, is based on preferences. But I know where mine are and if and when Alonso does the same I will be the first to vote him as the best driver of the season.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

By saying he only had a fabulous last quarter (it was more like a last third of the season but nevermind) you are acknowledging he had very little time to make up for such a large gap, placing his comeback amongst the most remarkables I've seen.

I really don't think that we can attribute Red Bull's resurgence and Hamilton and Alonso's poor fortune to Vettel's excellence. Red Bull clearly had the best car in the last part of the season whilst Alonso and, particularly, Hamilton suffered from issues beyond their control. Vettel's closing down of the championship was as much to do with his performances, which I would not want to discredit and were clearly of great quality, as it was to do with advantageous and fortuitous circumstances which were not of his own making. OK, that's motor racing but it is good to look at the full landscape of the story. The points do not tell the story accurately alone.

 

[Olivier]

Mansell4Ever somebody on this same forum has pointed out that if a driver had finished 3rd all races it would have won the WDC hands down. So yes a succession of third places evenly distributed throughout the year would have won that driver the title. The dominance from Vettel in the last quarter can only be compared to that of Senna back in 91 (I think). And yet Senna failed to dominate '92. Was it all Mansell virtue I wonder? Vettel no doubt about it came back strong to win the title but as ExtremeNinja suggests, it was not only the German hands but also the car which was clearly the car to have and the car to beat. No advantage from Alonso would be immune if has the 3rd fastest car (at best).

I had already explained what I thought were your mis-representation of facts, basically statistics can be represented to misconstrue reality. Take Stefan Bellof, Vettel from the 80s if you will, these are his statistics from the time he spent in F1:

Wins 0, Pole Positions 0, Fastest laps 0, Points 4

Does it tell the whole story? He must'n have been any good, there's nothing obscene about his stats. And yet he was ranked 35th best driver of the century (http://f1greatestdrivers.autosport.com/?driver=35)

I have to agree with you that I misunderstood what you were claiming and I hijacked the thread trying to defend the fact that in my mind Alonso was the best driver of the year. I apologize for that and since this is FB thread and he had something different in mind when he wrote it I'm going to stop here.

ps. Regarding Massa, don't get me started I couldn't be very objective with him since he is my favourite driver

 

[Slyboogy]

Vettel's closing down of the championship was as much to do with his performances, which I would not want to discredit and were clearly of great quality, as it was to do with advantageous and fortuitous circumstances which were not of his own making.

The same could be said about Alonso's first half of the season.

Red Bull clearly had the best car in the last part of the season whilst Alonso and, particularly, Hamilton suffered from issues beyond their control.

Clearly? I wouldn't say that.

As many have pointed out, it was evenly matched by the McLaren, the slight advantage that it had was reliability in the second half of the season compared to the McLaren.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Did Alonso have a car advantage in the first half of the season and did Vettel have a string of unfortunate retirements out of his control in the first half of the season? I am not sure how you can make that comparison. Alonso was doing much better in a car which was undoubtedly inferior to the Red Bull in the first part of the season. It took for Vettel's car advantage to increase beyond that of all of his other competitors before he was beating his team-mate and moving towards championship contention.

We will disagree on your second point. It was clear to me that the Red Bull was a better car in terms of pace, reliability, and pretty much all other facets in the latter part of the year - but, of course, that is only my viewpoint. I am not stating it as fact, although I'm very much settled in that opinion.

Let us not forget that the Red Bull was voted racing car of the year, despite it's early disadvantage to McLaren in qualifying situations.


[Edit] To summarise and to refer to my signature which reads "Luck is where preparation and opportunity meet", I feel that Alonso was prepared for a wider range of opportunities but had less. Vettel was prepared for a lesser range of opportunities but had more. I think this squares with the general consensus that Alonso is the supposed "most complete driver on the grid".

I have also just realised how wildly off topic this thread has become. I think largely due to some arm-wrestling over Sebastian Vettel that occured yesterday and has now been removed. I am sure, FB would be happy for us to move back to the topic in hand. If anyone feels to move mine or other's posts on this sub-conversation to another thread...