Sebastian Vettel - dangerous?

[snowy]

I've watched that move a few times since and because Sebastian is defending I take the view that the move is his one allowed defensive change of direction. Granted it is very late, very dangerous and meant to intimidate but it is ligitimate. If you look at the successful overtakes by the front of the grid cars on front of the grid cars there is almost always an intimadatory jink, usually by the overtaker on the overtaken, as if to say "it's mine, give it up!" Lewis did it to Jenson out of turn one, he didn't overtake that cleanly. He thrust his car where Jenson ideally wanted to be and they actually made contact.

 

[cider_and_toast]

Having just seen that move on Lewis for the first time. (I missed that part of the race and fell asleep during the highlights) I'm inclined to agree with Snowy on this one. I don't think that it was any where near as bad a chop or as violent a turn as Vettel did to his team mate. I think it's made to look worse by the fact that Lewis then runs wide into the corner. Still as Snowy said it's a dumb thing to do and definitely a portent for things to come later in the race.

 

[KekeTheKing]

He thrust his car where Jenson ideally wanted to be and they actually made contact.

Hopefully I'm not taking this thread off-track, but I just wanted to clear this up.

While Hamilton certainly thrust his car in front of Button, taking the ideal line away, there actually wasn't any contact between the two. The replays shown on the regular broadcast seem to show their front wheels touching, but from Button's onboard camera, you can see how he avoided it by turning the wheel right for a millisecond.

Simply remarkable driving by both guys throughout the entire sequence.

 

[snowy]

Outboard it looked like front wheel to front wheel contact but it's just possible to detect or infer Lewis bouncing off Jenson's sidepod in that clip.

Upon further observation outboard I have to agree that there was in fact no contact.

Boy those two Brits are good!

 

[teabagyokel]

Boy those two Brits are good!

*Plays Land of Hope and Glory*

 

[Speshal]

Outboard it looked like front wheel to front wheel contact but it's just possible to detect or infer Lewis bouncing off Jenson's sidepod in that clip.

Upon further observation outboard I have to agree that there was in fact no contact.

Boy those two Brits are good!

In the interest of fairness, and to me on that video at 36/37 seconds, Jenson seems to go right a bit and Lewis seems to bounce to the left a bit, rear wheel contact?

Bloody good bit of racing none the less.

 

[Galahad]

Sorry for resurrecting this thread, but I thought that this was the best place to add my 2p after seeing the start in Singapore again.

So - Alonso moves across on him approaching Turn 1, and Sebastian (unlike Webber in Turkey) concedes to avoid an accident. Was this a sign of weakness, or strength? Was it the sensible thing to keep himself safe and his championship alive, or does it just invite Fernando to do the same to him again in the future?

And how do we feel about this sort of intimidatory driving (regardless of who is doing it)? Senna and then Schumacher favoured placing their cars in such a way that the victim had a choice of conceding the place or causing an accident. And I can only think of two or three drivers who actually resisted this - Mansell against Senna, Jacques Villeneuve and Montoya against Schumacher. Now the behaviour is commonplace throughout F1 and other series. But isn't it the prerogative of the overtaking driver to make the move without putting either car in danger? Is there anything to be said for the attitude: If you can't make a move cleanly, don't make a move at all?

 

[Muddytalker]

Sorry for resurrecting this thread, but I thought that this was the best place to add my 2p after seeing the start in Singapore again.

So - Alonso moves across on him approaching Turn 1, and Sebastian (unlike Webber in Turkey) concedes to avoid an accident. Was this a sign of weakness, or strength? Was it the sensible thing to keep himself safe and his championship alive, or does it just invite Fernando to do the same to him again in the future?

And how do we feel about this sort of intimidatory driving (regardless of who is doing it)? Senna and then Schumacher favoured placing their cars in such a way that the victim had a choice of conceding the place or causing an accident. And I can only think of two or three drivers who actually resisted this - Mansell against Senna, Jacques Villeneuve and Montoya against Schumacher. Now the behaviour is commonplace throughout F1 and other series. But isn't it the prerogative of the overtaking driver to make the move without putting either car in danger? Is there anything to be said for the attitude: If you can't make a move cleanly, don't make a move at all?

I hate it, and it's frustrating to see otherwise excellent drivers carry out this squeeze. If the car on 2nd is alongside you, then (s)he started better than you, and has a right to challenge. It's a culture change that needs to happen, and will take time even if it does get eradicated.
The difficulty in enforcing the section that I've highlighted is that, for the most part, it's the car on pole (and so, already ahead) that is doing the squeezing, and so can't be defined as the overtaking driver.
I doubt it will ever happen (Schumacher/Barrichello aside; And I suspect, as RB is generally seen as Mr Nice, that if it had been another driver MSC may have just been reprimanded), but I'd prefer to see drivers penalised* for 'unsporting behaviour' when blocking/squeezing on the straight, especially at the start -

My first thought is that this can only be with a drive-through, though the size of penalty can differ according to pit lane length and where other cars may be at the time. The penalty of swapping positions whilst on track has too many issues at the moment, ref: Alonso/Kubica at Silverstone.

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

Quite apart from which, pulling these sort of moves off the start seems to be counter-productive anyway; wouldn't Vettel at Silverstone and Hockenheim, and even Alonso at Monza, have been better off if they'd just concentrated on getting to the corner first, rather than trying to squeeze their opponents into the wall?

 

[KekeTheKing]

It certainly appears that the chop at the start has become a go-to move for most drivers leaving from pole these days.

As far as Vettel's actions from P2 at the start in Singapore, I think this was a definite pre-cursor to the way he was going to run the race. Whether the instructions came down from the pitwall, I have no idea, but I strongly suspect that it was drilled into Seb's head that 2nd place would be very good. P2 would take points away from other WDC competitors, and certainly help his own cause as well.

For a guy that was within 2-3 seconds of Alonso for the entire race, Seb never seriously challenged for the win. Whether it was he or Red Bull that was satisfied with that is unclear. But I thought the chances of Vettel making a risky/dangerous maneuver were next to nothing.

Maybe if he was racing for his biggest supporter's Gold Medal, things would have been different.

 

[ladyinred]

Vettel still make to manys mistakes & has not good nerves.
He is very godd but still too 'green' to be a champion.

 

[cider_and_toast]

The chop across the track now seems to be the norm at the start of every race but it would be a very difficult thing to steward. I thought perhaps a good way of stopping it would be to paint a line down the middle of the track for a certain distance and then say that no car is to cross it in either direction at the start. Then I realised that was impossible because it would be easy for the front row to obey but what happens if the guy on poll stalls and every one has to drive around him, also the cars coming from the back of the grid are at speed by the time they cross the line and are quite entitled to try and pass if they are faster than the car ahead. I guess the only way of stopping it is a penalty for the driver concerned for dangerous driving but I don't see that happening either. I suppose it will need a big "red flag" shunt at the first corner of a circuit caused by "the chop" to make people think again.