[Rant] I've now decided I hate DRS

no-FIAt-please said:
"Back in my day we looked forward to that moment when it looked like we were about to get an overtake... the 45 minutes of realisation that we were not... well that weren't as pleasant..." :D

Think back... other than in 2011 when has there been a battle for the lead in an F1 race that didn't occur in the pitlane?

  • Turkey 2010
  • Canada 2010
  • Germany 2010ROFL
  • Germany 2008
  • Belgium 2008
  • USA 2007
I know there have been changes of lead on track since 2007 but I've only counted the ones I felt were true battles for the lead, not counting (ignore Germany 2010!) changes of lead like in France 2007 where Raikkonen's car was damaged.

Whereas in 2011 we had

  • China 2011
  • Spain 2011
  • Germany 2011
  • Belgium 2011
  • Italy 2011
  • Korean GP (completed without DRS)
I chose 2007 as a starting point because that's when I started watching F1 so my memory would be better. From 2007-2010 (4 seasons) there was 5 real battles for the lead, in one season with DRS we had 5 battles for the lead. I already know that people will criticise this saying that these battles/overtakes were artificial. All I am saying is that at least we're getting some changes of lead nowadays.
Click to expand

There were many changes for the lead but they weren't all down to DRS, Italy 2011 was the start with Alonso, then Vettel going on the grass to pass him, again outside a DRS zone. China 2011 was because of tyres, Germany 2011 was without DRS, Belgium if I remember, was Vettel going around Rosberg outside a DRS zone, not sure if that was for actual 1st place at that moment in time. Spain that was at the start again, and then more so strategy wise with the tyres.

The only two "real" battles for the lead this year that affected the actual race result, where China, and Germany. Vettel had the rest in the bag as he was faster for most of the time and it was always the case of "he will pass them sooner or later".

Wouldn't count USA 2007 and Spain 2011, think China 2007 should be there, Brtian 2007 aswell was a battle but more so in the pits,there's also the Nurburgring '07, you could add in Turkey 2008 aswell, and Fuji 2008, along with Spa 2009 , won't find anymore from 2009 as that was one of the most boring on-track seasons ever, I suppose you could add in Bahrain 2009 as that's just like Italy 2011, but I'm sure there's more for 2007, 2008 and 2010.

To be honest, I'm not sure where I'm going with this post.

I am not a fan of DRS, if they fix the zones, it MIGHT make it a bit more interesting for me, the only tracks that I thought where DRS was kind of successful, were Australia, Spain and Monaco (maybe Suzuka), everywhere else, it was a bit abysmal really.

It's here for the long-term now....so like the ugly front noses, I'm going to have to get used to this tool.
 
It bears noting the 2011 WDC and WCC both were won by a team with one of the least effective DRSs in the field (in terms of trap speeds). Yet Vettel dominated the season and, if memory serves, did not once fall victim fo a DRS-enabled overtake.

The main reasons for the increase in overtaking in 2010 were: 1) fresh meat, and 2) the F-Duct.

The three new teams on the grid in 2010 between them not could not manage a result better than 12th, much less score even a single WDC point. Plenty of low-hanging fruit.

Only a few of the 2010 teams managed to produce an effective F-Duct, and it was banned before the non-F-Ducted competition could catch on.

One of those two causes could not be expected to endure, and the other was scuttled as part of the FIA's steady march towards the 19th Century.

Which highlights the principle reasons why anyone ever might think DRS was necessary: the TR are too restrictive, resulting in too small a performance differential across the field, which in turn results in too little overtaking.

From the beginning of his reign as El Supremo, Bernie (and the FIA) has behaved as if he'd been spoken to by a burning bush, which commanded him to prevent the better-funded teams from investing heavily in new technologies and "buying the pot." Except that after three decades of this Ludditeism, the sport has given amiss to much of those 30 years of automotive technology, the better funded teams are yet all the more dominant, and the rate of overtaking through the era of the Oughties (2000-2009) was about 1/3rd the level it had been pre-Bernie. His application of socialism as motor racing is an abject failure.

DRS does nothing to correct the underlying causes of too little overtaking, it's just more beer and circuses to distract and stupefy the masses.
 
As I recall, DOF_power proved, by some extremely selective use of statistics, that the increase was just down to the new teams. Of course, he included Overtaking by the new teams on each other (and the about 3 new-on-olds) in that, and plain refused to account for Toyota's exit.

However, this is all rendered moot in a discussion about DRS, since the overtaking figures for 2011 rocketed, and it is utterly certain that is not due to the new teams, of which one was significantly more difficult to pass - at least as quickly as had previously been managed.

The point Keke keeps making, and needs to be made, is that you can't look at the overtaking figures from 1986-93 etc. and suppose each pass recorded was a classic. There were overtakes that were rubbish too.

Take the 1988 Brazilian GP. Ayrton Senna started last in the spare car of the most dominant car of all time. He was in 2nd place on lap 20. (He was eventually dsqed). In quali, he was 2 seconds quicker than 6th place man Michele Alboreto.

So passed, by OT or retirement or pits; Oscar Larrauri's Eurobrun (7 and a half secs slower than Senna in quali), Tarquini's Coloni, Modena's Eurobrun, Campos' Minardi, Dr. Palmer's Tyrell, Johansson's Ligier, Perez-Sala's Minardi, Streiff's AGS, Arnoux' Ligier, Dalmas and Alliot in the Lolas, Cheever's Arrows, De Cesaris' Rial, Gugelmin's March, Nannini's Benetton, Warwick's Arrows, Nakajima's Lotus, Capelli's March, Patrese's Williams, Boutsen's Benetton and Alboreto's Ferrari before reaching a car that was within 2 seconds of him in quali. I don't know how many of them were passed by Overtaking, but I doubt many required Senna to use his undoubted skill rather than just blast past!
 
teabagyokel said:
Take the 1988 Brazilian GP. Ayrton Senna started last in the spare car of the most dominant car of all time. He was in 2nd place on lap 20. (He was eventually dsqed). In quali, he was 2 seconds quicker than 6th place man Michele Alboreto.

So passed, by OT or retirement or pits; Oscar Larrauri's Eurobrun (7 and a half secs slower than Senna in quali), Tarquini's Coloni, Modena's Eurobrun, Campos' Minardi, Dr. Palmer's Tyrell, Johansson's Ligier, Perez-Sala's Minardi, Streiff's AGS, Arnoux' Ligier, Dalmas and Alliot in the Lolas, Cheever's Arrows, De Cesaris' Rial, Gugelmin's March, Nannini's Benetton, Warwick's Arrows, Nakajima's Lotus, Capelli's March, Patrese's Williams, Boutsen's Benetton and Alboreto's Ferrari before reaching a car that was within 2 seconds of him in quali. I don't know how many of them were passed by Overtaking, but I doubt many required Senna to use his undoubted skill rather than just blast past!
Click to expand

And if Ayrton had encountered any difficulty, he had a boost facility (the turbo) available to him that most of those other cars didn't have!
 
Slyboogy said:
There were many changes for the lead but they weren't all down to DRS, Italy 2011 was the start with Alonso, then Vettel going on the grass to pass him, again outside a DRS zone. China 2011 was because of tyres, Germany 2011 was without DRS, Belgium if I remember, was Vettel going around Rosberg outside a DRS zone, not sure if that was for actual 1st place at that moment in time. Spain that was at the start again, and then more so strategy wise with the tyres.

The only two "real" battles for the lead this year that affected the actual race result, where China, and Germany. Vettel had the rest in the bag as he was faster for most of the time and it was always the case of "he will pass them sooner or later".

Wouldn't count USA 2007 and Spain 2011, think China 2007 should be there, Brtian 2007 aswell was a battle but more so in the pits,there's also the Nurburgring '07, you could add in Turkey 2008 aswell, and Fuji 2008, along with Spa 2009 , won't find anymore from 2009 as that was one of the most boring on-track seasons ever, I suppose you could add in Bahrain 2009 as that's just like Italy 2011, but I'm sure there's more for 2007, 2008 and 2010.

To be honest, I'm not sure where I'm going with this post.

I am not a fan of DRS, if they fix the zones, it MIGHT make it a bit more interesting for me, the only tracks that I thought where DRS was kind of successful, were Australia, Spain and Monaco (maybe Suzuka), everywhere else, it was a bit abysmal really.

It's here for the long-term now....so like the ugly front noses, I'm going to have to get used to this tool.
Click to expand

At Monza Vettel only just managed to sneak past Alonso, I seriously doubt without the DRS that Vettel would have gotten past Alonso. Even if the overtake occurs outside a DRS zone it doesn't mean that DRS didn't affect the outcome of the overtake attempt.

Your right to say China was down to the degredation of the tyres. However Hamilton overtook Vettel with only four laps left, I don't think Hamilton would have made it past all his competitors in time to take the lead without DRS, however it's merely opinion.

In Belgium I think Vettel overtook Rosberg twice, once for the lead on the Kemmel Straight and then around the outside of Blanchimont for a lower position. DRS wasn't used in either overtake but I listed it only because there was a change of lead.

Spain was a battle for the lead, even if the overtake never happend. Hamilton was stuck behind Vettel for lap after lap and on one occasion got very close indeed.

In Germany DRS definately affected the battle for the lead. Same instance as Monza where the overtakes were happening right after the DRS zone, which allowed the cars to close up more than without DRS would allow.

As for some of the older races my memory may fail me so I could be wrong on some of this... USA 2007 should be considered a battle because quite simply, Hamilton and Alonso wheel to wheel flying down the main straight for the lead is a battle. China 2007 I seem to remember Raikkonen passed Hamilton when the tread on Hamilton's tyres was almost fully gone, of course an overtake is imminent in that situation. 2007 Britain was pretty much a pit fight which is why I didn't include it. You were right about 2007 Europe, I forgot about that. I also forgot about 2008 Turkey. I honestly can't remember Fuji '08 and Spa '09 that well but your probably right. Hmm it seems there was actually quite a few changes of lead I missed...
 
Also about technological innovation and a racing spectacle, yes? Whilst the FIA have cocked up some of the zoning of the DRS in 2011, it, as a concept, in my opinion, can be a valuable asset to F1 in terms of improving the spectacle and the racing e.g. avoiding a repeat situation of Petrov and Alonso in Abu Dhabi 2010 - remember, that was 20+ laps with Alonso having a much faster car. The DRS also represents an advancement in F1 technology and innovation - who can make their DRS the most effective etc.
 
I've probably said this so many times on a previous site people are tired of hearing it.

Drivers never used to block, then in reasonably recent times they started weaving all over the track making drafting and even out braking to dangerous to even contemplate, removing one of a drivers great skills. Finally the FIA bought in the one move rule to stop it. It helped a little in making the sport safer but now they've taken the next step. Now if a driver moves off line to block he's no longer allowed to move back onto the racing line. The result of this rule will become obvious. Drivers will be very reluctant to surrender the racing line knowing they can't claim it back which will hopefully bring back past skills. If the attacking driver has to move off the racing line to attempt a pass, whether it be through out braking or making a sweeping pass around the outside, and he's good enough to make it stick, then he deserves the pass. Would remind me of the 60's 70's and 80's when there was such a thing as driver etiquette born out of respect and the dangers involved.

If this new rule had been implemented sooner, the governing body my well have found DRS to be unnecessary and if it achieves the desired result they may decide DRS can be dropped. Lets hope so.
 
There's always been blocking in F1 but Michael Schumacher raised it to high art. His entire season result was DSQ'd in 1997 for an attempted block on Jacques Villeneuve that resulted in a collision. The reason the FIA ever sought to codify defensive driving tactics was because of this very incident with Mika Hakkinen at Spa in 2000:


If Senna and Prost were on the circuit at the same time, they might as well have been driving bumper cars. In a bygone era, it was normal for a team's #2 driver to be recruited with the certain knowledge that his job was to block for his team's leader, whenever possible. In the mid-70s, when Clay Regazzoni was il numero due to Niki Lauda at Scuderia Ferrari, Regazzoni was famous/infamous for driving what the motoring press termed "the world's widest Ferrari."
 
Blog Zbod.......Yes it did happen but I wouldn't call it common or normal in fact there were plenty of team principles who frowned on the practice. The situation at Ferrari grew out of 'one' incident at Watkins Glen in 1979 when Regazzoni was a lap down and started blocking Fittipaldi, who was chasing Lauda for the lead. Regazzoni got black flagged, Montezomolo fought the chief steward and it turned into a public relations shambles which, from all accounts, didn't please Enzo. That incident played a big part in the 'widest Ferrari' reputation but blocking to that extent was rare. There's a fine line between having a wide car and blatant blocking.
 
DRS Really didn't do anything for me last season. I just felt that the overtakes didn't look real tbh and drivers were just driving around each other with a slot in their wings.
However i'll give it a fair chance this year, to make me change my mind. If it doesn't then i think i'd like to see DRS gone for the 2013 season.
 
I really think DRS should be GPS controlled, so it can only be used to get side by side and then a driver has to stop using it. That way car positioning and braking will become a skill factor again. Feasibility is obviously a problem, but I'm sure they could work something out.
 

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