Fight, Fight, Fight..

RickD

Pole Sitter
http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?id=44255

LH has a point, why didn't Massa try to stay on the track, its not like there was a car beside him? Perhaps he's been learning too much off his tutor. Not that I didn't like MS as I did, he just had some very dubious tactics and cheated outright to two of his WDCs at least.

Should be some interesting sparks flying in China.
 

Jen

Here be dragons.
Contributor
Hi Rick

Completely disagree - Massa is not a "dirty" fighter and and am more of the opinion that Hamilton is a bad loser. It was, indeed, a racing incident despite the fact that Massa was penalised for it.

Hamilton's claims are more to do with his state of mind than any actuality - IMO Lewis will lose this WDC, the same as last year. He is a stunning racer, but at the moment only a "boy racer".
 

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff member
I think it's fair to say that the judgement of LH and FM will be biased in some way concerning this incident.

Although I don't believe Massa did it deliberately (he had more to lose if both cars went out), it was an ill-judged manoeuvre.

As for being a "racing incident", well that may have been true in the past but the stewards have made a rod for their own backs by penalising everything and anything so they had little choice but to award a penalty for this.
 

Jen

Here be dragons.
Contributor
So Bro - basically saying that they are no longer "allowed" to race!
 

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff member
Looks that way Jen, especially now drivers will be penalised for going too fast into the 1[sup]st[/sup] corner and going wide...
 

Jen

Here be dragons.
Contributor
Might as well close the series then!

Won't happen, so, we as fans, have to be a little more basic and enjoy the spectacle, without rooting for driver or team.
 

RickD

Pole Sitter
jenov2003 said:
Hi Rick

Completely disagree - Massa is not a "dirty" fighter and and am more of the opinion that Hamilton is a bad loser. It was, indeed, a racing incident despite the fact that Massa was penalised for it.

Hamilton's claims are more to do with his state of mind than any actuality - IMO Lewis will lose this WDC, the same as last year. He is a stunning racer, but at the moment only a "boy racer".
Sorry Jen, thats the way I do see it, Massa has certainly learned from the best though.

LH is a 'boy racer', aren't they all??? Any that aren't really shouldn't be in an F1 car as that is basically what they do.

As for LH being a bad loser, when your main rival damages your car by going off the circiut and then crashing into you, I think he has a right to be slightly annoyed by the stewards descisions and the fact that the person who took you out broke the rules 3 times in one race and got away with it with only a very minor punishment for one of the infrigements.
 

Amdathlonuk

Somewhat related.........
Contributor
I think this will run and run, however..........

I am a Hamilton fan, I won't deny it, but if you watch the replay, Massa DID run wide and LH had the racing line WITHOUT doubt, FM then tried to cut the chicane and use the outside of the track to try and regain his position.

The rules are clear, the racetrack is between the solid white lines, if he had just kept on the brakes for a few milliseconds more and slotted behind Hamilton then he wouldn't have got the penalty, and he could have had a go later on, or as we know LH needed to pit for tyres anyway as he completely stuffed the 1st corner.

If FM couldn't stop because he 'had 2 wheels on the gravel' he seemed to get enough grip to steer in the direction he wanted............ IMHO :s
 

Jen

Here be dragons.
Contributor
RickD said:
jenov2003 said:
Hi Rick

Completely disagree - Massa is not a "dirty" fighter and and am more of the opinion that Hamilton is a bad loser. It was, indeed, a racing incident despite the fact that Massa was penalised for it.

Hamilton's claims are more to do with his state of mind than any actuality - IMO Lewis will lose this WDC, the same as last year. He is a stunning racer, but at the moment only a "boy racer".
Sorry Jen, thats the way I do see it, Massa has certainly learned from the best though.

LH is a 'boy racer', aren't they all??? Any that aren't really shouldn't be in an F1 car as that is basically what they do.

As for LH being a bad loser, when your main rival damages your car by going off the circiut and then crashing into you, I think he has a right to be slightly annoyed by the stewards descisions and the fact that the person who took you out broke the rules 3 times in one race and got away with it with only a very minor punishment for one of the infrigements.
I'm coming from a completely different angle, because I believe in racing without the steward's interference. I actually think that all of those penalties were unnecessary and ill-conceived and to the detriment of the race and the spectacle.

Yes, they should all be racers, but not necassarily "boy racers" - there has to be a degree of maturity if you take the WDC and WCC seriously. This is were LH falls down. He is, undoubtedly, a very gifted racer but incapable of seeing "the bigger picture" (how I hate such modern speak) and despite his protestations that he is there to garner points (for himself and his team), he can not stop himself from jeopardising everything that he claims to hold dear by going for the "win".

Equally, I think it an unnecessary slur on Massa's intentions - by your estimation, Massa was just being a boy racer and, as such should be applauded for several brave moves. If your assumption is true, please explain what he would gain from possibly crippling himself. At this late stage, the then (Kubica is now an option) two main contenders just wanted to finish the race in the points

Japan was racing at it's best - for a number of years - only spoilt by the stewards.

Just so's we know - I'm an Alonso fan and have no team allegiances (much to my son-in-laws chagrin).

But my greatest wish is that we see racing, not this PC cack.
 

Galahad

Not a Moderator
Valued Member
In terms of the penalties, I agree with you jen. My instinct was that they were racing incidents and did not warrant any further punishment.

F1 is over-regulated, would you believe it? Oh, you would. Oh ok then...
 

Mezzer

A fine chap if ever there was one.
Contributor
I agree that Massa is typically not a dirty racer, however I don't believe there was any intention of not hitting Hamilton. I'm happy to accept that it was instinctive to prevent his nearest rival from overtaking but it was IMO an avoidable incident. At Spa Hamilton stated that he could have cut the corner or run into Raikonnen, he chose to cut the corner. When Massa was presented with exactly the same scenario he chose to drive into Hamilton. Frankly, its as simple as that.
 
GordonMurray said:
In terms of the penalties, I agree with you jen. My instinct was that they were racing incidents and did not warrant any further punishment.

F1 is over-regulated, would you believe it? Oh, you would. Oh ok then...
I agree in principal but it just takes us back to the blatant bias in FIA decisions. At Spa Hamilton is penalised for cutting a chicane and giving the place back, "gaining an advantage" is said to be important. At Fuji Massa gets away with a series of dodgy moves, leaving the track, gets one penalty that in no way redresses the advantage he gained. Bourdais gets a penalty for being hit by Massa and it becomes obvious (again) that the FIA are determined to help Ferrari win the Championships.

I'm all for proper racing and rewarding "boy racer" driving. It would be great to see a season of Hamilton and Massa banging wheels and taking each other out (especially if that gave Kubica the Championship), but the obvious truth is that Massa can do it with impunity and Hamilton and others have excessive penalties thrown at them for trying to race.

If Massa is allowed "racing incidents" then so should Hamilton be allowed them, and as for the Bordais penalty...
 

GeoffP

Thank you and good night
Contributor
Bottom line is - we want consistency. There have to be rules, they should be more in the background in order to allow racing between the top drivers in the field, when the rules are applied they should be applied consistently.

Until you get a computer to award penalties, like hawk-eye, you are never going to get rid of human error/bias. So how do you hide this problem a little better...

1. Make the rules clear
2. Stop changing them
3. Ensure each rule supports the race rather than inhibits it
4. Stop centralised control of EVERYTHING
 
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