Another challenge of the rules

bogaTYR

Points Scorer
BMW has not been able to find a buyer so the time was not able to sign the Concord agreement. Logically this would mean the team cannot enter F1 anymore. And guess what, FOTA supports efforts to allow the team to sign up later. What I note is a very serious and distinct silence from the teams working so hard to protect the rules.

hmmm...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/77572
 

cider_and_toast

Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex
Staff Member
Premium Contributor
I can't see this being a problem. BMW will not be running the team next year so any agreement would have to apply to a new team owner anyway.

The sport has been operating without a working agreement since the last deal expired 2 years ago.

Any new buyer should be aware of the distinction of buying the Team (i.e. The factory, Car, Drivers and other assets) and buying a place in Formula one since these are two seperate and very different things.

For the sake of a few months I don't think it's worth getting to stressed about it.
 

Galahad

Not a Moderator
Valued Member
In principle it's the same situation as Brawn was. But remember Flavio saying he would block them from getting Honda's prize money from 2008?

FOTA seemed a more cohesive organisation six months ago. Now any BMW successor team won't only need FOTA agreement to take over the entry, but that of Williams, Force India, CamposMeta, USF1 and Manor too.

I don't think any of them would object (who wants 500 redundancies on their conscience?) but it won't just be a rubber-stamping exercise either.
 

cider_and_toast

Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex
Staff Member
Premium Contributor
Maybe I'm missing something here but why would a team entering the sport need an agreement from FOTA et al?

Surely who runs and who dosn't is down to the FIA?

It's like Manchester United objecting to Burnley being promoted to the premiership and the FA saying oh yeah sorry we'll promote Ipswich instead.

As long as the team meets all the FIA strictures, Pays the deposit, Uses Cosworth engines (oops did I say that ;) ), and meats all the safety regs etc, then it shouldn't matter one jot what the teams have to say on the subject should it?

How can FOTA complain of a closed shop mentatlity at the FIA and then sponsor one themselves.

On the subject of Cohesion, I've said this before, the teams only work as a unit when collective interests out weigh individual interest.
 

Galahad

Not a Moderator
Valued Member
Sorry - yes, the FIA decide who's in and who's out, but the teams do have some control over commercial considerations.

The FIA declared that Brawn were a completely new team, rather than a continuation of the Honda team under a new name, as previous ownership changes (Spyker, Force India, Red Bull) had been handled before. This theoretically meant that they weren't entitled to the FOM free travel fund or Honda's share of 2008 prize money.

As this money came out of the central FOM pot, the other teams all had to agree unanimously to give Brawn Honda's share (since in the absence of Honda the extra money would have been shared around the other teams equally). This they agreed to do, under the aegis of FOTA, and Bernie signed it off.

The same would not necessarily happen in future if the same situation arose again.
 

cider_and_toast

Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex
Staff Member
Premium Contributor
Right, got your point now GM and it's a very good one.

The other thing here is that the way that money was distributed was originally to the top 10 teams in the championship. A few years back and mainly down to Paul Stoddart it was agreed that the bottom 3 teams would instead of recieving money equal to 8th, 9th and 10th would get an equal share of the sum of the three. Thus giving a bit of a financial boost to the lower order teams.

What is going to happen now that the number of teams will rise to 13. As you have said GM, If the next BMW is considered a new entrant then there should be 4 teams that are not entitled to any FOM money and travel perks. As you point out, If it is paid to New BMW then the three new teams will have a good case to protest.
 

Galahad

Not a Moderator
Valued Member
Yes, it's a complicated area.

During the FIA-FOTA wranglings there was talk of money to help new teams into the championship, but I don't think anything concrete was announced. It may be that under the new Concorde Agreement money is paid to all 13 teams, instead of the top 10 as previously - we can't be sure.

That money could be the difference between a new buyer deciding to buy the team or not, though.
 

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff Member
Again, it just shows how short-sighted the FIA and teams are.

You would have thought there would be something in the Concorde agreement to account for eventualities such as teams leaving or going bankrupt, new teams joining either as new entities or taking over existing teams, etc.
 

Galahad

Not a Moderator
Valued Member
There was a section of the old Concorde Agreement that talked about the transfer of benefit entitlements from one constructor to another - it was a complicated business, covering situations where a team changed its name, through to a change of ownership, and then requiring the approval of the FIA.

I'm sure this is covered in the new one, but doubt whether we'll ever find out the actual detail (unless someone makes it public?)
 

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff Member
I still find the timing of BMW's decision to pull out a bit strange.

They obviously knew they were going to do it, possibly several months ago while the FIA were selecting the teams for 2010.
Why didn't they announce it then giving everyone a chance to sort out the final entry list?

If no-one buys BMW (Pete Sauber has pulled out claiming BMW wanted too much money) then there will only be 12 teams instead of the planned 13.
Another new team could have had BMW's slot.
 

bogaTYR

Points Scorer
it looks like FOTA is just that, a group of teams with a mutual interest. but the minute one team has another interest, ist bye bye FOTA.

bmw, presentation of the second quarter results. these were published on june 30. so basically the company took action cos of that. something needed to be done to maintain shareholders value.
 

Galahad

Not a Moderator
Valued Member
And supposing BMW did know in May that this was going to be their last season? Their slot would have been given to one of the new applicants, as you rightly say, Bro. But what happens to the people who work at Hinwil?

At least doing it this way means you have a chance of a new buyer keeping the factory and some or all of the staff working.
 

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff Member
The second quarter results may have been published on June 30 but I have no doubt the state of the company finances were known long before this.

Of course, if they had announced they were withdrawing several months ago, that would most likely have affected the share price even more.
 

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff Member
GordonMurray said:
And supposing BMW did know in May that this was going to be their last season? Their slot would have been given to one of the new applicants, as you rightly say, Bro. But what happens to the people who work at Hinwil?

At least doing it this way means you have a chance of a new buyer keeping the factory and some or all of the staff working.
That's a fair point GM.

If BMW did announce it sooner though, it would have given more time to any prospective purchasers too.
Both BMW and Peter Sauber have suggested the very short timescale made it impossible to reach any deal.
 

Galahad

Not a Moderator
Valued Member
Impossible to reach a deal in time to sign the Concorde now, yes, but negotiations can continue and I'm pretty confident that any purchaser will be allowed to sign up later. I don't think it was a final deadline as such.
 

bogaTYR

Points Scorer
any action in may would have been impossible GM. somehow not giving information early which could lead to stock issues is much more important then the people at the F1 team.

my guess is BMW knew already in march they would shut down the F1 team. or at elast the option was high on the list.
 

FB

Not my cup of cake
Valued Member
According to the BBC Peter Sauber has had his bid to buy out BMW from "his" team has failed meaning he can't signed the Concorde agreement. Isn't this the moment for the FIA to offer a place to one of the other teams which bid earlier in the year?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8188800.stm

I appreciate getting a car ready between now and the start of next season would be a push but surely better to let a new team get started now than wait for some Brawn like Phoenix to rise from the BMW Sauber ashes, which might never happen.
 

Andrea_Moda_Rules

Podium Finisher
Fat Bloke said:
According to the BBC Peter Sauber has had his bid to buy out BMW from "his" team has failed meaning he can't signed the Concorde agreement. Isn't this the moment for the FIA to offer a place to one of the other teams which bid earlier in the year?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8188800.stm

I appreciate getting a car ready between now and the start of next season would be a push but surely better to let a new team get started now than wait for some Brawn like Phoenix to rise from the BMW Sauber ashes, which might never happen.


Who says they need tobe replaced there will still be 4 more cars then this year and while there is still a chance BMW may be sold (I think Sauber are still interested too) i dont think it is imperative that it has to be sold, if nothing happens then instead you could put someone in for 2011 instead, I think teams like prodrive and Epson Escudkili (sp?) woould still be intrested
 
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