Grand Prix 2018 German Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

So after an exciting British GP we move on to Germany. The Hockenheimring, where hopefully the excitement will continue.
It really is the home race of Mercedes, as the original circuit was used by Mercedes Benz to test their cars, but that was a very long time ago and the circuit then was nothing like the current, and in my opinion, strangely shaped circuit of today. Seen from the air it's a sort of square shape with a protuberance shaped like" Pinnochio's nose" coming off one side. Much has changed since the large triangular circuit that Mercedes Benz used. At one point the circuit became a large oval shape and ran through the forrest, and the race could be dry in the Stadium section and wet through the trees, which was always an interesting situation. However Herman Tilk got his hands on the place, and now the circuit is 4.75Km long and the forrest section is gone for ever.
It 's not a track with a lot of fast corners and it's quite slow through the twisty stadium section which is one of the original parts of the track that remains, and, where they have built a large number of grandstands. Obviously a good place to watch the race from.
The last race here was in 2016, and it was won by Lewis Hamilton in ... A Mercedes...But they haven't had it all their own way. Ferrari have had the most wins at Hockenheim over the years, so both teams will be going there with Huge expectations. I'm not about to pretend that I have any idea which car will be well suited to the track, or indeed which tyres should do well, the tyre choices are, I believe, Soft, Ultrasoft and Medium. But our CTA tyre expert will reveal all, I'm sure.

Qualifying at Hockenheim is quite important, as in, you qualify well, you do well. Although some of our younger drivers may not have got that point, I'm Sure Max will give it a go wherever he qualifies. Vettel now has 171 points to Hamilton's 163. Raikkonen is on 116 and Bottas is on 104. Obviously Ferrari are ahead, 287 to 267. Red Bull are doing their best but on 199 points total they are really going to have to hope for a miracle. The race is between the top two teams at the moment, and for once it really is a race. Lets hope it remains exciting in Germany. Lets hope Romain has a weekend where he doesn't hit anything or anyone. And lets hope for a miracle for McLaren as well as for Red Bull.
For anyone who is going to the race, if you walk through the old forrest section you will find a wooden cross a memorial to Jim Clark. There is a plaque behind turn 2 of todays circuit for him, but it's only there because the forrest section is no longer part of the circuit. One of the F1 greats.
 
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caught up this evening Lewis Hamilton outstanding drive from 14th reminded me of hungary 2014 or 2016. He was bit erratic & had bad luck on the Saturday but on fire on the sunday. A bit of luck but that is always swings & roundabouts took advantage. for me Mercedes were over cautious because they didnt need to give the order out because Hamilton with the 4 fastest laps in final 10 laps he posted was pulling away from bottas anyway after the 1st lap with cold tyres. i disagree He didnt get away with it, Ted & Christian explained on the teds notebook it is illegal for a driver to enter pits on wrong side of the bollard. But nothing is written about aborting & they believe its a race by race think whether its within rules to abort after bollard & it seemingly ok as your off racing line, at 70mph corner under a safety car not like baku at 210mph when racing . also a Spanish tv F1 Pitlane guy said on twitter "Reprimand to Hamilton is logical. Tailored, but sensible. It was not a dangerous action, during the SC regime & without taking advantage or premeditation. I see no reason to alter race result"

kimi did well again today if only he could race as well as that for a whole season not just when contracts up for renewal or challenged he couldve been challenge for the world championship. i Feel bit bad for the huge cheer & celebration i had when vettel crashing out. But thats sport im sure german cheered when Hamilton retired in austria. But we are in for a fantastic title battle that vettel stupidity denied us in 2017

what was happened in the few laps around lap 45 these clever team strategists. took complete leave of their senses on bone dry track bar slippery T6, they were sticking inters on & gasly on full wets what were they thinking :o, it was nowhere near ready. but wow that rain cant remember see a podium it such dreadful conditions. i wonder if that rain had turned up 20 mins earlier if race would've have even completed full distance. because torrential rain, thunder & lightening looked like Adelaide 91 & Sepang 09.

skyf1 went on break before paddock live but never came back. appartantly couldn't broadcast due to the electrocution risk :rolleyes::D
 
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If they want drivers in to commit to driving into the pitstop maybe they should put a barrier around the pit entry which will deter drivers from doing what Hamilton.

I don't think he did anything wrong because Mercedes made a mess of the pitstop in fairness and poor Bottas got another run of bad luck

It was rather comical the way Mercedes handled the pit stop

The only penalties they could have hit him with was a 25 second penalty seems very harsh given a pitstop time takes less than that or a drive through

So at worse he would have been 4th and still lead the championship by a smaller margin.
 
Publius Cornelius Scipio Apart from stealing a win from Webber in 2013 in Sepang when both cars were told to turn down their engines... I cant ever recall a time when Vettel has raced and beaten his teammate square and fair coming from behind him to overtake

Its almost as if he expects the team to move his teammate out of the way for him
 
Publius Cornelius Scipio Apart from stealing a win from Webber in 2013 in Sepang when both cars were told to turn down their engines... I cant ever recall a time when Vettel has raced and beaten his teammate square and fair coming from behind him to overtake

Its almost as if he expects the team to move his teammate out of the way for him

Il_leone I usually have a lot of respect for your posts but that is one of the stupidest things I've ever read on here. It actually made laugh out loud and nearly wake my little boy. There was a reason he never had to overtake Webber and that was because he was so ridiculously better and faster than he was that he was never behind him in the first place.

But hey I mean maybe you're right! What an entitled sod going round driving faster than his team mates! Look how entitled he is just going out there and smashing nearly every team mate he has ever had! Burn him as a witch I say.
 
Back in normal land what a great drive by Lewis to keep his head whilst all around him were losing theirs. Poor old Seb having a Mika moment!

If anyone has contacts with Merc can you ask them if I can just come along one day and give Bottas a hug? I think he needs. Royally screwed once again by factors outside of his control bless him. I keep wanting to call him Rubens.
 
Concerning the pit lane penalty: Has anyone been penalized for this before beside the penalty against Kimi in Baku in 2016?

I gather at Baku the drivers were told before the race not to cross the line to reduce the risk of collision. If this is the only such case in recent times of a penalty for crossing the pit lane line....this does not make a strong case that it should apply in this case.

Also, the 5 second penalty Kimi received in 2016 did not change his finishing position.

see: Raikkonen given penalty points for pit entry violation · F1 Fanatic
 
Publius Cornelius Scipio Apart from stealing a win from Webber in 2013 in Sepang when both cars were told to turn down their engines... I cant ever recall a time when Vettel has raced and beaten his teammate square and fair coming from behind him to overtake

Its almost as if he expects the team to move his teammate out of the way for him

I'm not sure that this comment is for me as I haven't made any comment about Vettel's racecraft, I just said that his mistake shouldn't have happened to a 4 times WDC
 
If they want drivers in to commit to driving into the pitstop maybe they should put a barrier around the pit entry which will deter drivers from doing what Hamilton.

just for the argument's sake :friends:, but at the sides of the track there are two white lines, one to right and one to the left, drivers shouldn't cross them (and have been penalised for crossing them in the past), by applying your logic if the FIA really doesn't want the drivers to cross them they should build a wall in place of the white lines
 
I can't remember anyone excelling in the rain recently because we don't get wet races anymore. Just laps behind the safety car.
 
Teams:
1. It does appear that the Mercedes and Ferrari were roughly equal. Not sure one was faster than the other this weekend. This bodes well for an interesting championship.
2. Ferrari's seemed to have a problem with tire wear compared to the Mercedes. As these were not the thinner walled tired that favored Mercedes, this was kind of a surprise.

Drivers:
1. Hamilton drove a good race and certainly deserved a podium position. I will let others debate when and where they should imposed penalties, but I would not have.
2. Bottas is a good soldier.
3. Raikkonen was not as good of a soldier. I do suspect that Ferrari pitted him early so as to mess with Hamilton. It is clear already at the half way point of the season that both Mercedes and Ferrari are running #1 and #2 drivers.

just a few remarks

1 I think that the Ferraris were quicker in qualy and the Mercs during the race
2 I was surprised of this as well, they obviously had a serious problem that would have probably cost them the race even if Vettel didn't crash. I also think that Ferrari has a problem with the way that they manage their drivers, either they have a #1 and a #2 or they let them race, the radio message suggesting that maybe Kimi should let Vettel through IMHO was wrong, because if they had team orders at play they should have told Kimi to move out of the way sooner than they did and if they really wanted him to move to a side they should have told him clearly, I think that he deserves a bit more respect from his team

1 yes I think that Hamilton did well, but IMHO it was not one of his best drives, as a matter of fact I found yesterday's race not particularly impressive from the driving point of view in general, Hamilton's best achivement was to look after the tyres during the first stint, I think that even without the rain and Vettel's mistake he could have won the race. Him coming from 14th to 3rd IMHO was nothing to write home about, everyone seemed to be moving out of the way or they were so slow compared to him
2 Bottas drove well, I think that he probably was the best yesterday
3 Kimi had some great moments but in the end when it mattered he didn't have the speed the challenge the Mercs, I think that Ferrari need a replacement because Kimi cannot help Vettel when it matters and cannot take points from Mercedes when Vettel is out
4 Vettel, what a disastrous race, he had shot his tyres and made a very silly mistake, silly because someone with his experience should have known better, he should have known that with very worn out tyres they would have lost temperature very quickly even with a few drops of rain, IMHO he should have been more conservative and should have called the pit to tell them that he was coming in for intermediaries, most of the field would have followed him at that stage. Vettel has been making too many mistakes this season, I don't think that his car is so much better than Hamilton and I fear that at the end of the season all these mistakes will cost him the WDC
 
Publius Cornelius Scipio Apart from stealing a win from Webber in 2013 in Sepang when both cars were told to turn down their engines... I cant ever recall a time when Vettel has raced and beaten his teammate square and fair coming from behind him to overtake

Its almost as if he expects the team to move his teammate out of the way for him

Remember that it was in his words take the points then & get told off. But doesnt matter as they can't take 25 pts off him & They talk about lewis moaning. Vettel was just as bad to team bosses when behind kimi. If he so much quicker why didn't he overtake
 
Why would Ferrari risk letting their drivers go wheel to wheel when they were both on different strategies and not racing each other? Especially with the two mercs closing in behind them. Seemed to be general consensus across commentary and down the pitlane too. In a race where so many other things happened I'm surprised this is even being discussed.
 
they wouldn't be racing wheel to wheel, because kimi experience would give his teammate room. but he was just moaning like a kid "come on i could go so much faster" if he could he would be overtaking kimi. look at bottas & lewis when then were different stratergies bottas didnt moan he closed the gap from 4 secs to almost nothing & if lewis hadn't been pulled in bottas would've overtaken him
 
also good fact from twitter it was the lowest place for winner since crashgate when Alonso won the Singapore GP

f1.jpg
 
The FIA don't do law courts but if they did they'd probably be the softest in the world.

Would that be Hypersoft or Ultrasoft? I can't remember! I reckon if you question them too hard at the beginning of the hearing they just crumble. Maybe that's how Mercedes got away with it!!
 
just a few remarks

1 I think that the Ferraris were quicker in qualy and the Mercs during the race
2 I was surprised of this as well, they obviously had a serious problem that would have probably cost them the race even if Vettel didn't crash. I also think that Ferrari has a problem with the way that they manage their drivers, either they have a #1 and a #2 or they let them race, the radio message suggesting that maybe Kimi should let Vettel through IMHO was wrong, because if they had team orders at play they should have told Kimi to move out of the way sooner than they did and if they really wanted him to move to a side they should have told him clearly, I think that he deserves a bit more respect from his team

1 yes I think that Hamilton did well, but IMHO it was not one of his best drives, as a matter of fact I found yesterday's race not particularly impressive from the driving point of view in general, Hamilton's best achivement was to look after the tyres during the first stint, I think that even without the rain and Vettel's mistake he could have won the race. Him coming from 14th to 3rd IMHO was nothing to write home about, everyone seemed to be moving out of the way or they were so slow compared to him
2 Bottas drove well, I think that he probably was the best yesterday
3 Kimi had some great moments but in the end when it mattered he didn't have the speed the challenge the Mercs, I think that Ferrari need a replacement because Kimi cannot help Vettel when it matters and cannot take points from Mercedes when Vettel is out
4 Vettel, what a disastrous race, he had shot his tyres and made a very silly mistake, silly because someone with his experience should have known better, he should have known that with very worn out tyres they would have lost temperature very quickly even with a few drops of rain, IMHO he should have been more conservative and should have called the pit to tell them that he was coming in for intermediaries, most of the field would have followed him at that stage. Vettel has been making too many mistakes this season, I don't think that his car is so much better than Hamilton and I fear that at the end of the season all these mistakes will cost him the WDC

As always, interesting observations.

1. Mercedes is claiming that Ferrari has a 40 HP advantage. I didn't see that on the track yesterday.
2. Agree entirely. If Raikonnen is the #2, then they should have let Vettel through a lot earlier. Not sure why they waited so long. I actually don't think it was a situation where they could wait.

1. Hamilton: Well, the charge up the field isn't all that exciting these days. The top cars are so much better then the "tier 2" cars. It is more about preserving your tires and using a little judgment. Hamilton did that.
2. Bottas: There is a reason he only has a one year contract, and I think that is primarily because he always seems a couple of tenths slower than Hamilton. He qualified 0.204 seconds slower than Vettel. The previous race Hamilton qualified 0.325 faster than Bottas. The race before that Bottas actually outqualified Hamilton by 0.019 seconds, and the race before that Bottas was 0.119 second behind Hamilton. Hamilton did set the fastest lap for this race, although I gather Bottas was not pushing towards the end. So, could Hamilton has taken pole on Saturday? Perhaps. Would Bottas have won the race Sunday if they let them race? Perhaps. But, it is interesting they only went with a one year contract, as I don't think any major established star is going to be on the market in 2020 (as everyone is waiting to see what 2021 brings). Therefore, I suspect the hesitation with Bottas is because of his pace.
3. Raikonnen: Agree entirely. Bottas has been able to help and protect Hamilton several times this season. Raikonnen never seems to be there. I gather the reason that Vettel likes him as a teammate is that there is no challenge. As good as Vettel is.....he has never had a teammate that was really a serious challenge to him (apart from the weird 2014 season where Ricciardo was outperforming him).
4. Vettel: Agree entirely. You should post that comment over at our old forum ;)
 
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Alain Prost is one of the greatest names in this sport, yet he too - like Sebastian Vettel - had his moments. Year is 1993, wet race is in Brazil, and it was eventful.
This race also showed two extreme sides of Alain Prost, which were both rare, let alone them being in a single race weekend. First we saw the Frenchman displaying complete dominance in all sessions with gaps, even towards his teammate in the same car, that were unheard of for the Professor. In the end we saw him leave the track in an even rarer mistake. Of course the question remains of whether the safety car shouldn't have been brought out before Prost crashed out. All in all, a spectacular water ballet, which is well worth remembering.

A Race to Remember

Things do happen even to best people.
 
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I think the way Vettel conveys his message to his team when he is stuck behind a slower teammate is not always good...not to say Alonso has not done it himself as well. He expects to the team to tell them to move out of the way

It was a strange tactics by Ferrari - a bit indecisive or was that Kimi's limit or did he have a problem. Vettel could have been more forceful on the track in that he was prepared to overtake him

I should add Raikkonen is going to be kept by the sound of things.. now Ferrari no 1 and 2 will only be justified if Vettel wins the drivers title ..if he does not then aint any more scapegoats to blame at Ferrari for it
 
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