Grand Prix 2015 Belgian Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

So the second half of the F1 season will start with the epic race through the Ardennes forest that is Spa-Francorchamps. The track has more iconic corners and sections than most of the rest of the F1 tracks have put together. What would a modern F1 season be without a race here? Well I guess it would be 2003 or 2006 but lets forget those and say how F1 would not be F1 without a race here. The teams certainly enjoy it and after they've all be sunning themselves on beaches for the last month (apart from Ferrari of course who have secretly been developing parts with Haas in America....allegedly) so they will be raring to go. No one will want it to come round quicker that Mercedes who had a bit of a nightmare in Hungary. Both their drivers have a reputation of losing heart after a bad result and dropping form so they'll be hoping that things run smoothly in the first part of the weekend and they start to get back in the control position they have sat in for most of the season. With Ferrari winning the race on pure pace last time out though both the team and drivers will be forgiven for looking curiously over their shoulder. Is it possible that Ferrari could mount a second half of the season championship challenge? Vettel certainly seems to have got a sniff of it.

Away from the front pair with have a Red Bull team who will probably be depressed as hell that their form of double podium last time out will sink into nothingness as their engine power lets them down and dumps them back into the pack. Whilst they've had a lot of stick off everyone for how they keep complaining about the Renault engines after seeing how good their chassie was at a track that doesn't require as much engine grunt you start to see their point. Wherever they are in the field Danii Kvyat will hope he continues to take little chunks out of Ricciardo's points lead on him. The young Russian will be on a high after his first podium and he showed in GP3 days he's pretty good round Spa. That's not to say Ricciardo isn't on form though, he had a great race last time out, but he really needs to work on those starts. In the Red Bull B team the fight between Sainz and Verstappen will continue. Verstappen has the points upper hand after his 4th in Hungary but Sainz has usually come out on top on this one.

Will the McLaren revival be dead on arrival? Great results in Hungary but I can't see the Honda engine doing too well on the long straights of Spa and Monza. However both have been known to have a high attrition rate through crashes so maybe if the McLaren keeps it clean and tidy they'll continue to pick up points. That means from a McLaren point of view they have to hope Pastor Maldonado carries on as he has been doing for the Enstone team. 4 penalties in one race I think is a record for F1 and surely we are approaching a 1 race ban for Crashtor. It can't be doing Enstone any favours in the cash department either especially as they are supposed to be broke. They at least have Grosjean quietly doing a good job though. Williams should be on strong form at Spa but you never really sure which Williams you're going to get on race day. I'm sure they'll make it their priority to not get involved in a race with the Mercs but whether they can mix it up with the Ferrari's is anyones guess. One man who will probably be mixing it up in the top 10 as long as his car holds together is Nico Hulkenberg. Hulkenberg seems to have re-discovered his appetite for F1 after his Le Mans win. The other curve ball into the F1 mix at Spa might be Manor. The decision still hasn't been made on whether they will run their 2015 car with the 2015 Ferrari engine. If they decide to it could bump them up the field a bit and make everyone have to be on their toes in Q1.

I hope the run of good races F1 has will continue with this one but once again I can't see past a Hamilton pole and cruise to victory. Mind you I said that at Hungary.

 

[erinha]

If the rubber on Pirelli tyres was gone, they would have hit the cliff and there would have been a performance drop first. Vettel was still lapping pretty consistently, and defending against a faster car. It didn't look like Romain was gonna get ahead anytime soon. Ferrari and Vettel could have seen if the performance was about to drop completely. What happened was totally unacceptable. Tyres shouldn't be instantly blowing up like that even if it was the end.

 

[teabagyokel]

He ran it for 28 laps*, and you can't tell me he was defending against a faster car with DRS without giving the tyres a pounding. It is not historically unprecedented either. Ferrari are pushing limits, and then crying when there's a problem. Pirelli aren't the only people to produce components onto Grand Prix cars that can fail, as Messers Hulkenburg, Maldonado, Sainz and Ricciardo could probably tell you.

*Incidentally equivalent to just over 36 laps at Sakhir or 45 and a half laps at Interlagos.

 

[Il_leone]

erinha Pirelli can recommend on the grounds of safety but it is up to Ferrari to decide if they want to heed the advice or ignore it

Vettel seems to think Pirelli told him that the tyres could last 40 laps

If Ferrari pulled it off then it would be considered great strategy but if they fluffed then they would look like idiots . Its plain simple

You can compare to 1986 when Mansell's tyre blew... Goodyear looked at Keke Rosberg's tyres and said they could last a whole race which Williams took advice on. When Mansell's tyre blew WIlliams panicked and pitted Nelson Piquet but it was too late as Prost won the race and the title having pitted earlier on . Williams did not blame Goodyear for the misinformation they saw it as one of those things

 

[Brogan]

that's how it's interpreted.

Incorrectly, as I have already stated.

How you choose to interpret other's posts is your prerogative, but don't accuse me of something which isn't true.

 

[rufus_mcdufus]

It was interesting just prior to the time the tyre blew it looked like Vettel's performance was actually recovering and he was starting to pull a small gap from Grosjean. I have no evidence for this but vaguely recall similar times when tyres have been pushed to the limit that there seemed to be a brief recovery period just prior to the failure. Probably rubbish but would be interesting to confirm.

 

[Il_leone]

Tyres do go through a graining phase to get rid of the marbles and rubber they pick up before they are back at their original pace... Di Resta did that a few times successfully in managing the tyres for Force India.

It did not look like Grosjean could pass Vettel because it seems the Ferrari appeared to be better out of La Source down to Eau Rouge and may have been down to the turbulence effect

it did look like Vettel might have held him off but Ferrari where seriously gambling that it would pay off

 

[olegg]

Lap – Vettel – Grosjean – Pace Dif – GAP
29 – 01:55,316 – 01:55,617 – -0,301– 3,897
30 – 01:55,523 – 01:56,019 – -0,496– 4,393
31 – 01:55,432 – 01:55,194 – 0,238 – 4,155
32 – 01:55,443 – 01:55,043 – 0,400 – 3,755
33 – 01:55,497 – 01:55,299 – 0,198 – 3,557
34 – 01:55,761 – 01:55,004 – 0,757 – 2,800
35 – 01:55,884 – 01:55,333 – 0,551 – 2,249
36 – 01:55,711 – 01:55,311 – 0,400 – 1,849
37 – 01:55,520 – 01:54,779 – 0,741 – 1,108
38 – 01:55,696 – 01:55,397 – 0,299 – 0,809
39 – 01:56,407 – 01:56,189 – 0,218 – 0,591
40 – 01:55,949 – 01:55,915 – 0,034 – 0,557

Ferrari decided to take the risk.
But they miss not only Grosjean

 

[erinha]

Some comments on the tyre subject from other teams:
Stehende Wellen in Eau Rouge: Zweifel an Pirellis Verschleiß-Theorie

Alan Permane says that they also considered a 1 stop race and it was an alternative.
FI technical director Andy Green says that the issue couldn’t have been tyre wear as Vettel was still doing consistent lap times and he wasn’t even in the danger zone.

 

[teabagyokel]

Yes, Pirelli tyres explode at random (on drivers who're hammering them over kerbs, for 30km longer than everyone else).

 

[FB]

I cannot see how anyone can blame Pirelli for Vettel's tyre failure. They pushed the tyre too far and he was having to push hard to keep ahead of Grosjean.

Also, the nonsense of track limits really needs to be sorted. Every other driver was, at some point, off the track and if they don't gain an advantage then they wouldn't do it. It's about time the FIA really clamped down and started dishing out drive through penalties. The drivers would soon stop pushing it if they got penalised.

 

[Spinodontosaurus]

The projected tyre life was 40 laps. For a tyre to then completely fail after just 25 laps is completely unacceptable.

 

[Brogan]

40 laps not including being hammered over kerbs.

 

[Spinodontosaurus]

^Otherwise known as driving around a racing circuit in a completely normal manner.

 

[Incubus]

erinha


You can compare to 1986 when Mansell's tyre blew... Goodyear looked at Keke Rosberg's tyres and said they could last a whole race which Williams took advice on. s

------------------------------------------------

I think you've got the wrong McLaren here. It was Prost's tyres that Goodyear were asked to look at after his (unscheduled) stop around lap 30. Rosberg's tyre delaminated in the back-straight just two laps before Mansell's so there obviously was no way Goodyear could have checked his tyres before the end of the race.

Goodyear were asked by Williams to check on Prost's tyres after his pit-stop, which had been caused by a puncture. goodyear were wrong-footed by Prost's smooth driving style because the remaining tyres on his car showed no sign of wear whatsoever.

 

[Incubus]

Hitting the kerbs as he was, especially at the top of hill, probably didn't help.

----------------------------------------

I was surprised nobody picked up on that but we distinctly saw Vettel nearly losing it on the kerb at Raidillion immediately before his puncture.

Now Pirelli are saying Rosberg's blowout on Saturday was different in origin and caused by an external cut but where did the cut come from? We also saw on the replays Rosberg's tyre cut appeared immediately following another harsh impact with the kerb on top of Raidillion. So even though the actual blowout occurred on different parts of the track the problem began at the same spot. Coincidence?

Whjen you consider the huge compression loads the tyre undergoes everytime a driver flies over the Kerb at Raidillion (of which we had graphic illustrations during several slow-mo replays) it just points to some drivers being over-aggressive with the kerb at that spot.

 

[Brogan]

^ That.

 

[erinha]

What does it matter how he was driving since his tyres didn't have a drop in performance before blowing up completely anyway? It suggests to me that there was still rubber on the tyre. That's also what Andy Green said, that if his tyres were badly worn his lap times would increase by 2-3 seconds. That's when rubber is worn below 30%. His lap times were within 0.7 seconds for the last 10 laps, so that's yellow zone for tyre deg, not red zone.
That's not even the issue imo, tyres shouldn't explode like that. STOP

 

[Brogan]

Why are you fixated on degradation?

Why don't you try driving your road car over kerbs and debris at 200 kph and see how long the tyres last compared to the manufacturer's recommendation.

 

[Il_leone]

I guess Ferrari might go and pester Bernie to get Michelin to be the tyre supplier now

 

[Incubus]

Precisely.

Even brand new tyres an explode when subjected to a sudden loss of pressure. Such as that caused by too heavy an impact with a kerb for example. How old were Rosberg's tyres on Saturday again?