Grand Prix 2012 Belgian Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Doesn't time fly! The summer break is approaching the end and after an astonishing Olympics which gripped a nation, the attention now turns across the Channel to see if another Brit can continue his push for glory. Victory in Hungary saw Lewis Hamilton reignite his stuttering season and closed (however small) the gap to Alonso to just over 40 points. The update package introduced in Germany have thrown McLaren back to the front again and just in time as any longer and Hamilton would have been out of the title battle just like his team-mate has been after a nightmare summer for Button. Hamilton has generally gone well at Spa with 1 win, a third place and a fourth. Although depending on your viewpoint it should be 2 wins and a fourth after the 2008 mess.

Although the true king of Spa has returned to the throne in the Lotus and with wins in 2004,2005,2007 and 2009 (close to winning in 2008 as well) not many would bet against the Iceman taking his first victory of the season at his favourite track. The Lotus has been in good form in recent races and a second and third in Hungary proved that where they pushed Hamilton from lights to flag but couldn't quite get past the McLaren driver.

Belgium is famous for it's 4 seasons in a hour in all different parts of the track weather and no doubt if rain is about that plays into the hands of the Championship leader Alonso as the Ferrari is the quickest car in the wet but possibly only the 4th quickest car in the dry, that was evident at Hungary anyway, whether that translates to Spa it is unknown, however Ferrari have traditionally been quick at Spa having won more times there (16) than anyone else so they/Alonso will be in the mix on race day, well let's face it, Massa won't be.

The big unknown here is Red Bull, having had to make several changes to their car to stop make sure it is legal and it has affected performance in recent races and they weren't in the hunt in Hungary. Indeed, Double World Champion Sebastian Vettel is on the longest winless streak since he joined Red Bull in 2009 having not won since Bahrain in April and the young German is currently a few points behind Mark Webber who has had somewhat of a resurgance this year having won at Monaco and Silverstone to become the leading chase driver in the Championship behind Alonso. No doubt Red Bull will be keen to avoid the infighting that nearly cost them the 2010 Championship and to ensure that they don't fall foul of any more FIA regulations as any more problems could see them slip behind Hamilton and possibly even Raikkonen.

Raikkonen is viewed by many as the dark horse for the Championship. He's only a few points behind Hamilton despite having yet to win a race this season which is a testament to his consistency, something which so nearly got him the 2003 title despite only winning one race all year (Malaysia). He's closed down bigger gaps in the past (2007) so he could play a major part in the Championship and if he doesn't ultimately end up in the mix at the end of the season, he'll certainly play a part in terms of taking points off other drivers as he will want to be in contention for podiums and wins as the first win has eluded him so far. He's certainly having a very successful comeback so far and has shown that the 2 years he's had out hasn't affected him whatsoever.

For Galahad 's circuit write up - http://cliptheapex.com/pages/circuit-de-spa-francorchamps/

 

[racecub]

I didnt hear that interview today but I have read somewhere(a few weeks back now) that Williams have been talking to, working with and giving training to maldonado, Wurtz`was involved in working with him. Could be the same thing?

 

[Kewee]

I believe that if Alonso had caused the incident that there would be absolutely no race ban at all. It wouldn't even have been discussed because it was Alonso. With him being a title contender a race ban just wouldn't have happened, he would instead receive a grid drop. How on earth can this be tolerated. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

If you look back over Alonso's career you will find his most serious indiscretion was failing to see the yellow flags in Brazil in 2003 and crashing into the wreckage Webbers accident had left on the circuit. At no time in his career will you find he has ever endangered the lives of any other competitors or taken any other competitor out of a race, so the inclusion of Alonso in your comments is irrelevant and absurd. I'm also gutted and appalled, gutted and appalled that Grosjean hadn't received a race ban sooner. If he had, Sundays carnage probably wouldn't have happened as he would already have learn't his lesson.
If you look at the replays you will realize that if Alonso had travelled one or two feet further forward, the accident could have and probably would have resulted in the sports first fatality since Imola when F1 lost Senna. If that had been the result Grosjean wouldn't have been faced with a penalty, he would have had his superlicence withdrawn and his chance of getting it back would have been zero, so that would have been the end of his career. He should be thankful he didn't kill another driver.
Many of us have followed this sport for decades and can clearly remember from Fangio through to Stewart and beyond all the drivers travelled in a straight line to the first corner, no weaving and blocking. It was called respect, respect for other competitors safety. They understood they had fifty or sixty laps to race and make up places. Maybe it's time the sport learnt from its past.

 

[sushifiesta]

I've thought about it and looked at it again and again and personally I'm still not sure it warranted a ban. It looks like Grosjean was moving to the inside to avoid the slow starting Kobayashi and completely misjudged where Lewis was. Also, this was a particularly chaotic start even before the accident (with Maldonado's jump start etc.), so it's perhaps not surprising that there was an incident.

I think he deserved a 10 place grid penalty for Monza for causing a collision. A ban would be deserved if he deliberately drove in to Lewis, which I don't think he did. It was clumsy rather than malicious. Deliberate and malicious moves by the likes of Maldonado in the past are more serious in my opinion, and race bans have not been given for these where they perhaps should have been.

I don't think Grosjean's previous collisions (which haven't all been his fault) should be taken in to account, neither do I think they were by the stewards. I think he's unlucky that the resulting accident was so serious. I'm not sure of the exact wording of the regulations, whether it's the move or the consequences that is punished, or some combination. It would seem that the stewards are punishing the consequences more than the move to me.

 

[F1ang-o]

In my long driving life...I have seen many idiots cause accidents & 'swan -off' & get away with it ..& because the folk behind are reacting to their selfish, stupid rash behaviour, they get the resulting aftermath carnage to contend with.

If Maldanado hadn't made the jump start........
If he'd had been given a race ban for his ired mist, aggressive deliberate moves on other drivers...Perez & Hamilton especially...thie first corner pile-up & what could have been a fatality, may not have occured.....his selfish rash behaviour might have been reigned in...

.IMO too little too late, Grosjean being made the scapegoat.

 

[Kewee]

F1ang-o........The only thing you haven't considered is these drivers are all holders of superlicences and are considered the very best in the world and as such should be able to cope with all that happens with clarity and certainly without emotion, at least while they're in the cockpit. That is all they have, to keep themselves and the drivers around them safe. As highly trained professionals they also have the right to expect nothing less from one another. Grosjean was not made a scapegoat, the error was his and if he can't retain self control when another driver jumps the start he has a problem he needs to attend to.

 

[F1Yorkshire]

I think the race start should have been aborted. As soon as I saw Kobyashi's brakes giving off smoke I knew there would be problems.

I'm not sure if that is what caused his slow start or if it was just down to inexperience as it was his 1st time on the front row of the grid and he would be used to reacting to the driver in front. Either way his slow start caused the chain reaction down the grid ultimately resulting in the 1st corner carnage.

Has anything been said by Charlie Whiting about the start?

 

[F1ang-o]

Kewee
I am not saying Grosjean is innocent...
What I was trying to convey ....the problem has been allowed to get to the stage where a fatality very nearly occurred.
IMO Pastor Maldanado cannot retain his self control ..malicious moves on other drivers.
Grosjean was clumsy & rash....certainly......but malicious.....not IMO

 

[siffert_fan]

Kewee,

So you think receiving a grid penalty for a gearbox failure is fine? As my previous post said, apparently unclearly, how much space do you have to leave when coming out of the pit? The stewards investigate that one all the time and it is always subjective. These are the kinds of interventions by the stewards that I object to. Bone-headed moves by drivers are a different matter entirely.

 

[siffert_fan]

I wonder if mandating cars narrow enough to be able to form up starting grids with the 3-2-3-2 arrangement from days of yore would reduce the number of first lap contretemps? It worked great in the 60s and 70s.

Of course, the drivers then respected and, in many cases, actually liked one another, as they frequently socialized together. Nothing at all like today. The greater danger of those days probably had an influence as well.

 

[Kewee]

siffert_fan.......I don't recall making any reference to anything on this thread on any topic other than dangerous driving at the starts. Since you ask do I think a grid penalty is fine for a gearbox failure. Yes it is. It's clearly a breach of the technical regulations which is written clearly along with the penalty imposed. Technical regulations related to the lifespan of mechanical components are there for a reasons related to cost and are clear and transparent, as are the penalties. Regarding space when you leave the pit box. They're tough on this in the interests of safety. F1 simply can't afford near fully fueled cars or even half fueled cars having accidents in the confined area of the pits with so many crew members surrounding cars as they arrive and leave. I've made my opinions of the Grosjean incident very clear so I won't repeat myself.

 

[F1Yorkshire]

I wonder if mandating cars narrow enough to be able to form up starting grids with the 3-2-3-2...

Interesting concept. With 3 cars on the front row if a pole driver decides to block his closest rival then he leaves his door wide open for the 3rd driver to take the 1st corner.
On the other hand though 3 drivers trying to squeeze into the same space 2 only just fit into at the moment could create more carnage. The drivers need to receive more race bans for silly collisions which should hopefully stop them attempting these gung ho manoeuvres.

Apart from Schumacher no other driver has experienced a race weekend where there has been a driver fatality. They need something to make them realise the consequences of their actions. Race bans are the only way.

 

[Kewee]

F1ang-o.......I think we probably agree on this one F1ang-o. If we look back, the win at all costs attitude was taken to a new level during the Senna / Prost battles. The driver that took blocking and weaving to new hights was Schumacher and during the last decade or so it's been like a tragedy looking for a place to happen. On Sunday it damn near did happen. Most of the drivers are guilty to some extent, some more than others, all I'm saying they need to make changes and the only tool the FIA have are penalties, and race bans are the most effective.

 

[Westy]

Kewee - thank you for your response. Maybe Alonso was not the best driver to use in my post. However, I used him because he is sitting atop the driver table. I could have put any other title contender in my argument.

My argument is centered around the subjectivity of the stewards decision making and the lack of clear cut rules from the FIA. You see this sort of thing every year whether it be in a driver penalty or one teams interpretation of the rules when designing their car.

Please don't think that I have not been following the sport for a long time and have no historical perspective. I just feel that the FIA have their favorites and will continue to work harder to protect them than the less fortunate teams at the back of the grid.

 

[The Artist.....]

Kewee
I couldn't agree more.... It's always telling that when drivers come into F1 nowadays, they all try to use the Schumacher chop at the start! I seem to remember saying after Suzuka 2011 that we were looking at having an aeroplane type crash if some of the antics at the start continued.... Many drivers have been guilty of it... Mansell, Senna, Schumacher, Vettel, Hamilton; all champions, all have at some point or another swerved right across the track at the start... Maybe if drivers like Vettel were penalised for almost causing an accident, it might have more effect than when we just have penalties for causing accidents!

And this one is scandalous.... 4.48 in:

 

[Kewee]

Cheers Westy, F1ang-o, @The Artist, Nice chatting. Kewee's off to bed now.

 

[teabagyokel]

It seems rather unfair to call it the "Schumacher chop" then produce video of Nigel Mansell doing it a whole year before Schumacher's debut.

 

[Incubus]

Alonso tweet after Spa:
There are no victories in the war without a scar, no rainbow without the rain ..! See you in Monza!

Hamilton tweet:
Sometimes, bad days are there to remind us that we have good ones to look forward to. So here's to Monza! Onto the next one..

Blimey. Do they go to the same creative writing group and should they get a refund?

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

Kewee,
I agree with you 100% regarding the Senna/Prost & Schumacher eras. However, I repeat my earlier point that their sort of blocking/barging/weaving behaviour was not responsible for the Spa accident. All that was, in reality, was a quite minor accidental coming together of two side-by-side cars due to the poor judgement of one driver, which had a near catastrophic result due to the interlocking of the wheels which sent one car airborne.
In my view no amount of regulation would prevent the possibility of such an accident happening again. What would have made such a serious outcome much less likely on Sunday would have been some bodywork between the front & rear wheels, like go-karts have and something like the way Indycar is going:

Personally, I would rather see something like this in F1 than ever more 'driving standards' regulations and/or cockpit canopies.

 

[The Artist.....]

teabagyokel

I merely call it the Schumacher chop as he was such a prominent user of it!

(btw, it's Mansell chopping off Prost...)

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

teabagyokel

The only thing is, when Schumacher did it he tended to use the method to stay in front, rather than let two Mclarens go by.