Grand Prix 2011 Japanese Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

The championship is still alive!!!!!!!!!!! Okay that may be a bit over optomistic

Despite another crushing win by Vettel in Singapore, Buttons valiant second place ensures that the championship mathematically remains possible for the experienced Britain, but for him to take his second world title he requires Vettel to not finish in all the remain races and Button to win every race and to be honest there is as much chance of me winning the lottery.

Indeed, Button has had a strong 2011 and this would be more highlighted if it wasnt for the sheer dominance of Vettel who has taken a podium in every race apart from Germany. He has outperformed his beleagured team mate Hamilton who is under severe pressure from the media after another incident, this time with Massa who didn't take kindly to it and made his feelings clear after the race.

But at Ferrari they seem to be going through the motions after a great win at Silverstone, Alonso has strong drives without challenging and Massa is regularly in the middle of the points without ever challenging the podium, surely he'll be on the way out soon as he's not performing at a level that Ferrari require him to be if they want to be serious Constructors Champions in the future.

Big news at Mercedes as Aldo Costa and Geoff Willis have joined the team, with the team struggling (in comparison) since their return to the sport in 2010, these two signings might just get them back at the front in the near future and might convince Schumacher to extend his contract, Singapore aside, Schumacher's performances have been a lot better this season and at the very least he has matched Rosberg and perhaps there is still life in the old dog yet and the podium might not be too far away.

Japan has become famous for title deciders with Prost/Senna being the most memorable with the crashes at the final chicane and turn 1 being some of the most controversial in the sport (particularly the latter after a dispute over the start position). The track is regarded as one of the best driver tracks on the calendar, second only to Spa and returned to the calendar in 2009 after Fuji pulled out of F1 due to financial problems after holding the grand prix in 2007 and 2008 where Hamilton and Alonso won respectively.

No doubt the championship will be won in Suzuka but you never know, stranger things have happened in F1, surely the reliability of the Red Bull can't hold out forever, can we hope?

For Galahads superb circuit write up see here http://cliptheapex.com/pages/suzuka-international-racing-course/

 

[Vortex]

Huh? But Webber did make it! Therefore as he was behind Hamilton going into the final chicane of course Hamilton would have made it. That’s precisely why Webber jumped him at the chicane, otherwise he wouldn’t have.

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

Schumacher had no intention of setting a competitive time, as he admitted the Merc was never going to seriously challenge the top six places; he just wanted to start a timed lap to avoid falling behind Kobayashi. In which case, why didn't he leave the garage with three minutes to go, when there was an empty track?

Hamilton backed no-one up, he was just trying to keep a reasonable gap back from Button, as he was perfectly entitled to do. Webber and Schumacher simply left it too late, and Schumacher especially deserved what he got for a stupid initial decision.

 

[Senna's_right_foot]

Except in Singapore Lewis was trying to get track position, which Massa didn't want him to have. At Suzuka he prevented someone getting a flying lap by backing them up.

It's not Massa's place to not 'want him to have' position, they're not racing in qualifying. That is my point. Nor does it matter whether the driver in front or the driver behind is on an out lap or a flying lap, either the car in behind was impeded or he wasn't. The same treatment should be meted out to both drivers, whether a penalty or not - Hamilton was driving faster than Massa, Hamilton was slower than Shumacher and Webber. Same interpretation of the rules should apply to both, although given that Ross Brawn has now admitted Schumi had no intention of completing a flying lap it's a bit of a moot point. Perhaps Mercedes could have avoided the scenario by not playing silly buggers and just sending their guy out to try and get a lap which would get him as far up the grid as possible?

 

[Brogan]

Same interpretation of the rules should apply to both.

As should the same criticism and defence.

 

[Josh]

Huh? But Webber did make it! Therefore as he was behind Hamilton going into the final chicane of course Hamilton would have made it. That’s precisely why Webber jumped him at the chicane, otherwise he wouldn’t have.

Webber made it only because he passed Hamilton. Hamilton was superslow going into the chicane, he should have been carrying more speed before that. That's precisely why they passed him.

I think Webber just made the line in time, only because he went through and carried more speed into (and out of) the chicane.

 

[Senna's_right_foot]

As should the same criticism and defence.

Exactly. I've already stated that both drivers were entitled to hold position.

 

[Dario Resta]

Schumacher had no intention of setting a competitive time, as he admitted the Merc was never going to seriously challenge the top six places; he just wanted to start a timed lap to avoid falling behind Kobayashi. In which case, why didn't he leave the garage with three minutes to go, when there was an empty track?

Hamilton backed no-one up, he was just trying to keep a reasonable gap back from Button, as he was perfectly entitled to do. Webber and Schumacher simply left it too late, and Schumacher especially deserved what he got for a stupid initial decision.

Schumacher was trying to cover whatever Kobayashi did. Whether or not he intended finishing the flying lap is irrelevant. If Lewis had gone at a more reasonable pace at the end of the out lap, all three of them would have crossed the line in time. Lewis does not have the right to back up cars behind him to make space if it prevents the cars behind getting across the line in time.

Lewis made an error, which he admits.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Huh? But Webber did make it! Therefore as he was behind Hamilton going into the final chicane of course Hamilton would have made it. That’s precisely why Webber jumped him at the chicane, otherwise he wouldn’t have.

Also if Jenson had gone faster it would have been possible for Lewis to create space behind and also beat the flag. The team know exactly where all cars are, they should have planned q3 better

 

[Vortex]

Schumacher was trying to cover whatever Kobayashi did. Whether or not he intended finishing the flying lap is irrelevant. If Lewis had gone at a more reasonable pace at the end of the out lap, all three of them would have crossed the line in time. Lewis does not have the right to back up cars behind him to make space if it prevents the cars behind getting across the line in time.

Lewis made an error, which he admits.

All that’s true yes, totally agree, but also Lewis was trying to keep a gap to Button, so he was stuck between a rock and a hard place. The two Mclarens should have been further apart.

 

[Il_leone]

Did we just see Jenson deliberately screw his teammate and Whitmarsh praise him for it?

Ahem in Spa Jenson had to give way to Lewis to do his run and in turn it meant he did not have enough time to his run in Q2

 

[Il_leone]

The face that Lewis had for post race interview....same as Turkey last year...when Button tried to pull a fast one on him.

He might be more angry with both Webber and Schumacher for chopping him up especially as Schumacher short cutted in front of him

 

[Fenderman]

Before we have another bun-fight, how about folk's read earlier posts where our forum compatriots have already pointed out perfectly reasonable aspects of the incident? I am as disappointed as any hardcore fan with regard to what happened there but I think it's all been said. Allow me to recap:

Hamilton, Webber and Schumacher leave the pits for their final runs assuming just enough time to spare and IF they get around at a normal out-lap pace.

The chaps in front spread themselves out and Hamilton is given conflicting radio calls with regard to his gap to Button. Martin Whitmarsh's explanation to DC, EJ and the very tall young bloke regarding their instructions to Hamilton tells us this.

The time to start the flying lap is evaporating. Hamilton makes adjustments to settings on his wheel as is perfectly usual, spots Webber in his mirror and stays wide as Webber charges through the chicane. Schumacher charges by on Hamilton's left.

Webber makes it across the line in time. Schumacher and Hamilton catch the chequered flag. Out of time, out of luck.

That's it.

Can we move on to talking about somebody else for a change.

Fenderman's note: Apologies to Ray in Toronto Canada for using a pale imitation of your inimitable style.

 

[Il_leone]

Mclaren messed up today..if it was Senna he would make it clear when to get out and give himself the clear air he needed
it seems to happen too often that neither driver are taking the initiative to avoid such situation

Mclaren don;t have someone like Ross BRawn on the pitwall who make sure that situation does not happen

I guess no one seems to have read up on Lewis Hamilton accepted the blame for his quali mistake

On the plus side he is on the clean side of the track so he may get a run on Vettel

I don;t see Vettel winning this one given the Red Bull performance advantage is less in race trim from restricted use of the DRS

 

[cider_and_toast]

None of this over shadows the fact that if they'd not left it so long to go out and set a time there wouldn't be so much egg on face at the moment.

I couldn't beleive it when, with less than 4 minutes on the clock, cars were pictured being reversed into their garages with tv monitors placed on the cockpit etc. Why?

One things for sure, as a result of this, there is a requirment for some minor rule tweeks regarding Q3 running.

 

[Il_leone]

Wrong...he got it wrong...he was slowing down & going for a fast lap..but was not fueled for it.
JB had another brain fade. He was only fueled for two laps. The two BBC commentators though JB was being kind to LH...as if...

I guess you forgot Jenson did let Lewis past in Spa during Q2 then which lead to him missing out on Q3 because he was not able to get around to start a quali lap

 

[cider_and_toast]

Wrong...he got it wrong...he was slowing down & going for a fast lap..but was not fueled for it.
JB had another brain fade. He was only fueled for two laps. The two BBC commentators though JB was being kind to LH...as if...

Out of interest, apart from what you've written making little sense, I presume you mean Schumacher was only fuelled for 2 laps? Also, what evidence do you have for Button's "brain fade" as you put it?

 

[Brogan]

One things for sure, as a result of this, there is a requirment for some minor rule tweeks regarding Q3 running.

Agreed.

For a start, let's get people in the garages who can work out how to deduct the time required for an out lap from the time remaining, and send cars out with enough time to spare.

Red Bull, McLaren and Mercedes all screwed up this weekend.
Everyone knows that you need a gap to the driver in front to stop your lap being compromised, so it was obvious they would space out over the course of a lap.

 

[Bill Boddy]

Personally I blame the FIA and Pirelli. The difference between the two types of tyre is too great, compounded by the "prime" tyre not lasting long enough to justify using it to gain time by not pitting. The result has been that we have now got to the stage where there are drivers either not going out in Q3 or going out just to pit.

The front drivers are having to use a set of options to get into Q3, once there they have to try to save at least one, but preferably two, new set(s) for the race.

So what happened today was that the top three teams all sent their drivers out on their Q2 tyres to set a time and still have two sets of new tyres in the race. As long as no-one went out and did a run on new tyres this would be fine, but if one did then the others had to respond.

So the top six all sat there in the pits watching their opponents. The two Renaults did not go out at all, as expected. Kobayashi went out and did an incomplete lap, this would have put him ahead of Schumacher on the grid if Schumacher did not go out. Schumacher then decided that he would need to do the same as Kobayashi, but must do it as late as possible so that Kobayashi could not steal a march on him by going out and setting a time.

The driver with most to lose was Vettel, he wanted pole. He left it as late as possible but early enough to ensure that he would be in clear air. Ferrari reacted first, followed by the McLarens, then Schumacher got involved inadvertently. Due to the lateness and all the drivers wanting at least four seconds, and preferably more, of clear air there was just, and only just, enough time for everyone to get over the start/finish line in time. But due to the earlier drivers making larger spaces for themselves it became all to cramped. The result was what we saw, three drivers fighting over the last chance to get a lap in.

If the "option" tyres were more consistent throughout their lap range and the "prime tyres" lasting longer at a better pace this shambles would not happen.

 

[Il_leone]

None of this over shadows the fact that if they'd not left it so long to go out and set a time there wouldn't be so much egg on face at the moment.

I couldn't beleive it when, with less than 4 minutes on the clock, cars were pictured being reversed into their garages with tv monitors placed on the cockpit etc. Why?

One things for sure, as a result of this, there is a requirment for some minor rule tweeks regarding Q3 running.

I hope so because the cars that get into the bottom of top 10 - Mercedes, Renaults, Force India's aint bother running and wasting a set of tyres because they already know they aint fast enough for the front 3 so why waste a set

I hear quali tyres are going to be used next year possibly and I hope they make cars run at least once or force some penalty for not running deliberately

 

[Vortex]

Red Bull, McLaren and Mercedes all screwed up this weekend.
Everyone knows that you need a gap to the driver in front to stop your lap being compromised, so it was obvious they would space out over the course of a lap.

Yeah, each probably thought they’d be the only one on the very last second, when there was 3, nearly 4 with Button they realised there’s a problem.