Grand Prix 2011 Italian Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

The fat bloke lady is starting to sing

Sebastian Vettel took a major stride towards a second world championship after a crushing win in Belgium, he extended his lead over Mark Webber who made a good recovery from a bad start to finish second after a fantastic overtake on Fernando Alonso into Eau Rouge.

Lewis Hamiltons indifferent season continued after a crash with Kamui Kobayashi into Les Combes, while he won't admit it, he will be close to giving up on closing down Vettel as he is over 100 points behind, but while he can't win the championship, that won't stop him going to win every race remaining and with Monza being a strong McLaren track, he will be up there in the running.

Monza is one of the most historic tracks on the F1 calendar and will be full of Ferrari fans as it is the teams home race and the tifosi are known for their support of the prancing horse and after a Ferrari win in 2010 they willl be expecting more of the same from Fernando who needs a win to keep alive his fading championship hopes but an average showing in Spa including losing third place late on will be a killer blow to the Spaniard. Massa is sliding further into obscurity after a good start, but faded quickly into the minor points.

The track isn't one of Red Bulls strongest circuits due to the low downforce and long straights but we have said that a few circuits aren't Red Bull friendly circuits and Vettel has gone on to get pole and win and Monza might not be an exception with Vettel in imperious form and the car seemingly bulletproof there is no-one who can stop the bull racing to the title in emphatic fashion.

After a turbluent weekend, Pastor Maldanado picked up his first point in F1 with a strong drive to tenth (and a lot of luck) to give his beleagured Williams outfit a small reason to be happy but it represents how far they have fallen in that a point is an achievement for them. Barrichello finished a dissapointing 16th finishing behind both Lotus cars.

Bruno Senna will be aiming to improve on a promising first weekend back in F1, he qualified a brilliant 7th, but rusty racecraft caused a bad collision at turn 1 and he eventually finished 13th, the last of the unlapped cars, Petrov managed to pick up a handful of points to go level with his former team mate Nick Heidfeld who is seeking legal advice after losing his seat last week to the young Brazilian.

Adrian Sutil continues his upturn in form after outpacing Di Resta who had a poor weekend with the German taking home 7 points and Di Resta just finishing outside the points in 11th, with Nico Hulkenberg challenging for a set at Force India next season, both these two drivers have improved lately with both taking home points from the last few races
At the back of the field, Jarno Trulli finished ahead of his team-mate showing that maybe he still has some pace in the Lotus now that they have fixed the power steering issues, with Chandhok just over his shoulder he will need to beat his team-mate to ensure that he still has a seat at the team next year and extend his long career.

For Galahads supreme circuit write up see here http://cliptheapex.com/pages/autodromo-nazionale-monza/

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Looking at those photos you can see that Vettel is on pointing into the Tarmac whilst Hamilton is pointing out on to the grass.

This pretty much confirms that one was evasive action and the other was a bit of rallying round the outside.

 

[Vortex]

Yeah that’s because the corner had just ended into the straight, good job too!

 

[Dario Resta]

Looking at those photos you can see that Vettel is on pointing into the Tarmac whilst Hamilton is pointing out on to the grass.

This pretty much confirms that one was evasive action and the other was a bit of rallying round the outside.

Hmm, Vettel is on a straight, but he's steering (slightly) to the right. Lewis is on a right hand curve and steering straight ahead. So what is it you believe the photos tell us?

 

[ExtremeNinja]

both put the other on the grass, and both Lewis and Vettel could have backed out of the move.

Hamilton did. Imagine if he hadn't.

I take it you mean that Lewis would have chopped Schumacher even more (to cost Schumacher a front wing & put Lewis in the wall)?

Not at all. I meant Schumacher probably would not have avoided the shunt. He's not got a track record of keeping his nose out of trouble since his return.

Feel free to repeat yourself as much as you like, it's a free country.

I am aware of my freedom, but what would be the point in saying the same thing twice? I do hope that's not a dig.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Hmm, Vettel is on a straight, but he's steering (slightly) to the right. Lewis is on a right hand curve and steering straight ahead. So what is it you believe the photos tell us?

It tells us that Vettel is on his way back on to the track at the point where Alonso closest to him and it tells us that Hamilton is driving off of the track at the point that Schumacher is closest to him. It tells us that whilst one driver is taking evasive action the other is simply driving beyond the confines of the circuit.

You may find some repetition in that post, but only to give context the answer I have given to your question.

 

[Vortex]

Anyway, I was just pointing out the difference in perception of the two moves and how Schumacher is seen as the villain despite the similarities of the car positions.

I just think Schumacher’s is blown out of proportion compared to the other one.

They were both hard fights by very skilled drivers on the limits and Vettels move was fantastic!

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Its obvious to me that one driver is being offensive and the other is being defensive. The proximity of the other car (Alonso/MS) tells the story, one is dangerously close and the other is comfortably close

Its not rocket science

 

[Dario Resta]

Hamilton did. Imagine if he hadn't.

Not at all. I meant Schumach probably would not have avoided the shunt. He's not got a track record of keeping his nose out of trouble since his return.

I am aware of my freedom, but what would be the point in saying the same thing twice? I do hope that's not a dig.

Not at all. I don't do digs. I just happen to disagree with you, and you're welcome to reiterate your point as often as you like. Go on, you enjoyed the battle really, surely? It was great to watch. Aren't you just a bit peeved because it held Lewis up and cost him a better result?

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Anyway, I was just pointing out the difference in perception of the two moves and how Schumacher is seen as the villain despite the similarities of the car positions.

I just think Schumacher’s is blown out of proportion compared to the other one.

They were both hard fights by very skilled drivers on the limits and Vettels move was fantastic!

We'll agree to disagree. I personally can't see the similarity between the car positions and the circumstances of the incidents at all so we're not going to meet up on this one. Thanks for the videos and the pics. The introduction of media gives good context to the debate. Bit of a pain in the backside trying to do al that on an iPad though.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Not at all. I don't do digs. I just happen to disagree with you, and you're welcome to reiterate your point as often as you like. Go on, you enjoyed the battle really, surely? It was great to watch. Aren't you just a bit peeved because it held Lewis up and cost him a better result?

Bit of both. I enjoyed the battle to a point, but I don't like to see drivers endangering each other. If they do it to themselves, then fair enough. I was disappointed that no action was taken and I was disappointed that Lewis' race was compromised. Schumacher could have taken some glory from that fight but instead he played dirty and has ended up at the centre of some quite negative appraisals of his driving and sportsmanship.

 

[Dario Resta]

Bit of both. I enjoyed the battle to a point, but I don't like to see drivers endangering each other. If they do it to themselves, then fair enough. I was disappointed that no action was taken and I was disappointed that Lewis' race was compromised. Schumacher could have taken some glory from that fight but instead he played dirty and has ended up at the centre of some quite negative appraisals.

Fair enough. I don't totally agree that Michael played dirty though. Hard, yes, but the Curva Grande move wasn't questionable. The block into the Lesmos - I might have given him a drive through. Having said that, he got a stop-go at Silverstone for hitting Kamui, what did Webber get for hitting Massa at Monza? The difference? Schumacher hit Kobayashi on a damp track on the first lap DRS was enabled and got caught out braking. What was Webber's excuse on Sunday. That was a totally avoidable accident, but no action. The point is people, including the stewards always see things differently. Schumacher has a reputation, and I think that along with some harsh penalties for Lewis make Sunday's battle reflect badly on Schumacher, harshly in my opinion.

 

[Vortex]

Agreed! I personally preferred Monza’s stewards, wish it was consistently like that more often. As I’ve said before, I don’t want to see penalty, after penalty, after penalty, after penalty, after penalty…………….

 

[ExtremeNinja]

I try not to get into the "inconsistent stewarding" debates. They always seem to get a bit heated. I think it's better to look at the incidents in isolation and make judgement, in the same way that the stewards are tasked with doing. I can only really do that here and with my friends though and, at the end of the day, I know my judgement and opinion means toffee as it is in no way going to effect the outcome of any particular incident. It does give me at least a peace of mind to try and look at these things objectively and discuss them with others who may be able to challenge and often influence my appraisal.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

I think the stewards did really well this weekend, maybe it was Mansells absence

Lewis could easily have been penalised for weaving behind MS when trying to overtake, or for trying to get a tow, or even for an avoidable incident at the start when he got squeezed in a Seb/Alonso sandwich and backed out

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Agreed! I personally preferred Monza’s stewards, wish it was consistently like that more often. As I’ve said before, I don’t want to see penalty, after penalty, after penalty, after penalty, after penalty…………….

Nope. Just penalties when they are due and a lack of penalties when they are not.
(not in reference to any incident in particular)

 

[ExtremeNinja]

... could easily have been penalised for weaving behind .... when trying to overtake, or for trying to get a tow,

Really? These aren't even offences let alone punishable offences? Not sure what you mean.

Edit: Actually, how do you get a penalty for backing out of being sandwiched by two drivers, too?

Puzzling comment there Cookin'.

 

[Vortex]

Think he was jokin!

...hope so anyway lol

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Offences can be created ad hoc and then penalties applied retrospectively in F1

So a driver who is not being cautious and mindful could follow the prevailing law only to find after the race that the rules were changed mid race and he fell foul of them

So it could have been decided that the moving around trying to overtake was excessive and dangerous and warranted a time penalty

or that trying to gain a tow is dangerous because the leading driver might get distracted

However the stewards were extremely fair this weekend

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Think he was jokin!

...hope so anyway lol

Apparently not.

 

[Vortex]

Apparently not.

hmmm... lol