Grand Prix 2011 Italian Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

The fat bloke lady is starting to sing

Sebastian Vettel took a major stride towards a second world championship after a crushing win in Belgium, he extended his lead over Mark Webber who made a good recovery from a bad start to finish second after a fantastic overtake on Fernando Alonso into Eau Rouge.

Lewis Hamiltons indifferent season continued after a crash with Kamui Kobayashi into Les Combes, while he won't admit it, he will be close to giving up on closing down Vettel as he is over 100 points behind, but while he can't win the championship, that won't stop him going to win every race remaining and with Monza being a strong McLaren track, he will be up there in the running.

Monza is one of the most historic tracks on the F1 calendar and will be full of Ferrari fans as it is the teams home race and the tifosi are known for their support of the prancing horse and after a Ferrari win in 2010 they willl be expecting more of the same from Fernando who needs a win to keep alive his fading championship hopes but an average showing in Spa including losing third place late on will be a killer blow to the Spaniard. Massa is sliding further into obscurity after a good start, but faded quickly into the minor points.

The track isn't one of Red Bulls strongest circuits due to the low downforce and long straights but we have said that a few circuits aren't Red Bull friendly circuits and Vettel has gone on to get pole and win and Monza might not be an exception with Vettel in imperious form and the car seemingly bulletproof there is no-one who can stop the bull racing to the title in emphatic fashion.

After a turbluent weekend, Pastor Maldanado picked up his first point in F1 with a strong drive to tenth (and a lot of luck) to give his beleagured Williams outfit a small reason to be happy but it represents how far they have fallen in that a point is an achievement for them. Barrichello finished a dissapointing 16th finishing behind both Lotus cars.

Bruno Senna will be aiming to improve on a promising first weekend back in F1, he qualified a brilliant 7th, but rusty racecraft caused a bad collision at turn 1 and he eventually finished 13th, the last of the unlapped cars, Petrov managed to pick up a handful of points to go level with his former team mate Nick Heidfeld who is seeking legal advice after losing his seat last week to the young Brazilian.

Adrian Sutil continues his upturn in form after outpacing Di Resta who had a poor weekend with the German taking home 7 points and Di Resta just finishing outside the points in 11th, with Nico Hulkenberg challenging for a set at Force India next season, both these two drivers have improved lately with both taking home points from the last few races
At the back of the field, Jarno Trulli finished ahead of his team-mate showing that maybe he still has some pace in the Lotus now that they have fixed the power steering issues, with Chandhok just over his shoulder he will need to beat his team-mate to ensure that he still has a seat at the team next year and extend his long career.

For Galahads supreme circuit write up see here http://cliptheapex.com/pages/autodromo-nazionale-monza/

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Took me while to dissect your answer from the padding there, Ray. I'm not sure what your answer means either. "during the race over an entire lap". Is that at the beginning of the race, the end of the race, or in the middle of the race? I'll rephrase.

Do you think that McLaren had the fastest car over a race distance?

I agree with Vettel and the rest of the informed majority on this one. He's quite sure he had the quickest package in both qualifying and the race. If you answer with either "yes" or "no" I will be more than satisfied.

I'm not really interested in all that other stuff in your post. Having read that from you a few times today already it's just noise now.

"cheers"

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

But Hamilton was not caught out by Schumacher. He was watching Schumacher and as a result was caught out by Alonso and Vettel. There is a difference.

Hamilton was totally caught out by Schumacher. Who else was Hamilton caught out by?

Alonso and Vettel were simply readying to run their race out front ...Hamilton should have been doing that too...but his mind was elsewhere!

I specifically said Schumacher caught Hamilton napping. That's what happened.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Yes I believe the McLarens had race winning pace in the Italian Grand Prix at Monza on September 11, 2011.

 

[Quintessentially]

Definitely, I think McLaren had the car to challenge for the win but you can understand why Hamilton was super-cautious. I was watching the fight with Schumacher thinking I've seen it all before and it was certain to end in tears so I was pleased to see him come home 4th. More importantly McLaren picked up the most points and consolidated 2nd in the constructors.

On a slightly unrelated note- I honestly don't know what to make of Webber these days. Stupid boy.

 

[tranquility2k9]

What is an interesting point is when Vettel has one of these races like Monza where he gets into the lead early and then pulls a large gap and then everyone says he is cruising to the end. Well, there have been numerous races this year that have showed a pattern between McLaren and Red Bull. The Red Bull and Vettel especially always seems to be ultra fast during the first stint, but then their pace seems to go off as the race goes by. The McLaren's are the exact opposite to this, there have been many races where they have seemed fairly slow during the first stint and them come alive in the 2nd half of the race and been faster than Red Bull.

Some examples of this are:-

Barcelona:- Hamilton didn't seem a match for the Red Bull's early on, but it soon became clear in the 2nd half of the race that he was faster than Vettel.

Monaco:- Vettel got a healthy gap in the first stint and looked as though he was nearly a second a lap faster than JB, but then from that point onwards, Button clearly showed that the McLaren was a match if not better on pace.

Canada:- Ok, weather conditions came into this one too, but the Red Bull certainly looked superior to any other car during the first stint, however, during the 2nd half of the race Jenson was massively quicker.

Germany:- Probably the best example, Webber was all over Hamilton for the first stint and looked to be much faster, however, from the 2nd stint onwards, Hamilton was faster. Webber couldn't pull away and in the final stints it was Hamilton that pulled away from him as the fuel came down.

Spa:- Vettel appeared to be faster than Hamilton and Button during the first stints but then when Button got in some clear air, he caught Vettel up during the 2nd half of the race and seemed to be a match for him on pace if not faster.

Italy:- Vettel was super fast at the start, whilst McLaren's pace was masked by being stuck behind Schumacher. As soon as the McLaren's were in free air, they were consistntly faster than Vettel and caught him up. Some of this would have been down to Vettel taking it slightly easier, but surely, they were a match for him at least.

Surely all this evidence points to the fact that for some reason, either through the design or setup of their respective cars, Red Bull are very fast at the start of the race but then become comparatively slower compared to McLaren throughout the course of the race, with McLaren generally ending up faster at the end. I think you can look at Mercedes as a good example of this. They have clearly said that their fundamental car design and placement of their fuel tank hampers them on heavy fuel, but that their pace gets better as their fuel gets burnt. McLaren appear to have the same issue, although it is much less exaggerated. Red Bull however seem to have the opposite and it may just be a setup thing as they generally qualify on pole, they think if they can pull a gap at the beggining and get track position then that puts them in the box seat, which they have proven time and time again.

Hmm, maybe I should be an analyst for the BBC because I think that's a better take than any of the BBC pundits gave on whether McLaren really could have challenged Vettel had they been right behind him or even got the jump on him from the start. My prediction based on all evidence above is that it would have been mighty close.

 

[Brogan]

Red Bull are quick during qualifying on low fuel.

Red Bull are quick at the start of the race on heavy fuel.

No set up changes are permitted between qualifying and the race, therefore I conclude that Red Bull are quick at all times.

 

[FB]

Alain Prost used to "drive fast enough to win the race" and I remmber Senna slowing quite dramatically in the last few laps fo mnay Grands Prix so I'm not sure we can necessarily conclude that the McLaren is faster at the end of the race based on lap times alone.

Also, in todays F1, it's very likely the Red Bulls have gone into fuel save mode where as, taking Monza as an example, Button was being chased by Alonso (once he'd warmed up his tyres) and Hamilton was driving his nuts off in the hope of catching the Ferrari.

 

[tranquility2k9]

Red Bull are quick during qualifying on low fuel.

Red Bull are quick at the start of the race on heavy fuel.

No set up changes are permitted between qualifying and the race, therefore I conclude that Red Bull are quick at all times.

I am not suggesting that they are not quick on low fuel in the race, but comparatively compared to McLaren the patterns that I identified clearly show that they are relatively quicker at the start of the race than at the end. Some races this can be accounted to Vettel just going fast enough to win, but certainly in other races, there have been examples of the McLarens seeming slower during the first stint but then being faster at the end - and im on about races where Vettel or Webber were pushed to the very edge for victory. McLaren wouldn't just let Vettel get a 5 or 10 second advantage at the start of the race for the fun of it and Vettel wouldn't cruise at the end when he has Hamilton or Button up his backside or quickly catching him.

Maybe Red Bull stay the same in speed and McLaren just get quicker throughout the race due to similar reasons as Mercedes. Indeed, McLaren generally seem slower than Ferrari during the first stint but then appear faster as the race goes on also. I'm not just on about when they switch to the harder compound either.

Your theory of saying the Red Bull is quick in qualifying and therefore is just as quick at the end of the race when the tank is empty is a little flawed because if that were the case, Vettel would have been a second a lap quicker than Hamilton at Barcelona during the final stint, but he was actually slower. There is more to it than simply saying what you have said. I'm trying to look at something a little more deeply to actually understand what is going on. To also try and understand if McLaren had a chance of victory at Monza.

Just as with China for Vettel where his first stint was compromised by the McLarens, which ultimately cost him a near certain victory, at Monza it could be that the McLarens being hampered for much of the race by Schumacher cost them a "chance" of victory. All im saying is that everyone always says the Red Bull has way more speed in hand, yet there have been several races where other cars have pushed them right to the limit or actually been faster during the 2nd half of the race and they haven't had this huge amount of speed in reserve, they have been pushed to the limit. In almost all of those races, during the first stint though, they appeared to be completely dominant, just as they did at Monza.

 

[Brogan]

Your theory of saying the Red Bull is quick in qualifying and therefore is just as quick at the end of the race when the tank is empty

I didn't say that.

 

[tranquility2k9]

Hmm, I guess I misinterpreted it then, never mind. I just thought what I was saying had some sense behind it lol, but you always feel stupid until people start to agree

 

[ExtremeNinja]

I think it's all about downforce. Red Bull have more of it so are better on high fuel loads. They shed their downforce with DRS during qualli so are not hampered by it there. At the end of the race when fuel is low and the car moves around less they lose a portion of the advantage they have to McLaren. by then, it is usually too late.

Downforce is king and Red Bull have best downforce, hence Red Bull are king. In ALL scenarios.

Tyres and strategy account mostly for the anomalies.

 

[gethinceri]

Hmm, I guess I misinterpreted it then, never mind. I just thought what I was saying had some sense behind it lol, but you always feel stupid until people start to agree

I agree.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

I agree.

Some people think everyone else is stupid until people start to agree. No names mentioned.

 

[Brogan]

Brundle's comments on the race.

Alonso's apologies weren't enough because post-race Vettel officially asked the stewards to look into the incident.

Surprisingly, they were not asked to comment on the robust defence by Michael Schumacher from Lewis Hamilton.

A steward told me after the race that he was very frustrated not to have been consulted during the race, particularly as he takes a very dim view of what he perceived as blocking.

I asked race director Charlie Whiting if the stewards can call up issues for themselves if they are not happy with something they see, and he said: "Absolutely".

The procedure which did happen was race control spoke with the team and gave a warning which translated into two radio calls from team principal Ross Brawn to Schumacher to leave more space for Hamilton.

This undoubtedly confirmed Schumacher was driving in an aggressive and questionable manner, and it must be said that many teams and drivers would have appreciated this service in the past rather than being issued an immediate penalty.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula_one/14883755.stm

FACT, err I mean, Cheers.

 

[teabagyokel]

Lewis just does not want to get the stewards involved in any of his incidents, does he?

 

[Jos the Boss]

Most Entertaining driver of the week poll is up!

 

[Bullet190]

Brundle's further comments.......

I also know the feeling of being on the receiving end of Schumacher's late moves, especially when I was his team-mate. He barged me on to the grass big time in Hungary in 1992.

But this is my view of Sunday.

Did we see a consistency of application of driving standards rules? No.

Have drivers been penalised for less than Schumacher did? Yes.

Has Hamilton been punished for less? Yes.

I thought Hamilton handled the post-race interviews very maturely.

With the information I have would I have penalised Schumacher in the race? No, we need quality racing and it's meant to be tough out there, but a reprimand may have been appropriate.

I stand by what I said in commentary - Schumacher was placing his car very well, but his secondary defensive moves were pushing the limits to the absolute extreme and he was lucky to get away with it.

Why are we sensitive to blocking?

It's the scourge of all junior racing, and will sooner rather than later cause the death of a driver or marshal, or send a car flying into the grandstands.

It's not about favouring one driver over another.

Well done Martin for saying what needs to be said............I'm now waiting for Lauda to tell us all how dangerous it was etc etc.........................still waiting !

 

[Quintessentially]

Brundle's comments on the race.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula_one/14883755.stm

FACT, err I mean, Cheers.

That's interesting and I saw that tweet from MB on Beeb's website wondering what it was all about. This now clarifies it. So McLaren raised a complaint and Charlie decided to deal with it and not bother referring it to the stewards? I am satisfied with this line of action as the sporting regulations allow him to do so. Going forward, as long he's consistent there should be no complaints.

 

[Brogan]

Going forward, as long he's consistent

Well he hasn't been so far so why would you think he will change his behaviour now?

 

[Quintessentially]

That's the problem. It's hard to gauge who hasn't been consistent. Whether it is Charlie Sheen himself or the stewarding panel. We know for sure that anyone guilty of excessive blocking will get a 'procedural' telephone call from Charlie (Sheen, Charlie Sheen) asking to behave.