Grand Prix 2011 Hungarian Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Who was saying 2011 was boring?

It's amazing how a few non Red Bull dominated races can change the complexion of F1 and suddenly it's exciting again. However before we get too carried away, Vettel still holds a massive points lead and despite a poor (by his standards) race in Germany, he is still hot favourite as the F1 circus rolls into Hungary.

Hungary isn't known for it's exciting races (apart from 2006 possibly thanks to the weather) due to the dust bowl and lack of overtaking oppurtunities, but if 2011 is anything to go by, the phrase 'no overtaking' has been thrown out of the dictionary.

Despite recent set backs Red Bull will be favourites to bounce back at a circuit which suits them to a tee with weather conditions that will be beneficial to Vettel who struggled with grip at the chilly Nurburgring. However Ferrari and Mclaren have shown that they won't just stand still and let Red Bull walk to the championship with Hamilton and Alonso winning in the last 2 grand prix.

Indeed Mclaren seemed to be in trouble going into the German GP as they were off the pace of the Red Bulls and Ferraris, but in Hamiltons hands the car made a miracle recovery to not only take a front row position ahead of Vettel, but take the teams third win of the season after very stiff competition from Alonso and Webber. Is this the start of the established teams fightback?

Even beleagured Ferrari driver Massa has showed improved form recently with two 5th placed positions in the last 2 races but they could have easily been 2 fourth places had it not been for a strong defensive rearguard from Hamilton in Silverstone and a pit stop mess up in Germany which enabled Vettel to get past on the last lap. As Ferrari plan to take the fight to Red Bull, they will need Massa to take points off Vettel and Webber if Alonso is to have any chance of a miracle fightback.

Mercedes are in a league of their own at the moment, but not in a good way. They are faster than the likes of Renault and Force India, but slower than Ferrari, Red Bull and Mclaren and the 7th/8th place almost has a Mercedes name penned in if there aren't any incidents, (which knowing Schumacher is rare)

Renault have dropped off badly after a strong start to the season and after a crash from Heidfeld and a poor race from Petrov, they now find themselves picking up the scraps in the midfield for 5th place in the championship as Mercedes start to pull away from the black and gold outfit, maybe a tweak of the exhaust might bring them better fortunes in Hungary.

One person who drove a great race in Germany but hardly got any recognition was Adrian Sutil who drove probably the best race of the German drivers. 6th place after a strong qualifying will no doubt relieve the pressure that had been building on him and will show to Di Resta that he won't have things his own way at Force India and that Hulkenberg might have to wait a while for a race seat.

No doubt that there won't be any uncertainties about the weather this weekend as more often than not Hungary provides a race weekend with 30 degree sunshine with not a cloud to be seen, apart from the 2006 race which was notable for Jenson Buttons first win in the Honda.

For Galahads superb circuit write up see here http://cliptheapex.com/pages/hungaroring/

 

[ExtremeNinja]

I think there are reasons for all, maybe open air and the lot, but I think when McLaren and RB needed to pass a Ferrari, it was done without much fuss, the only let off was the last passes on Massa with faded tyres.

I don't really think that Ferrari are all that quick, maybe just lighter on tyres or easy to drive generally, but again can't get up to temp. I am starting to feel that Alonso is getting way more out of the car than what it is actually capable on fair reflection. Massa is good indication of exactly what a Ferrari is...Miles behind the contenders but ahead of the pretenders.

Hee hee. More than is capable. That is quite an achievement and probably a first for mankind.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Wonder what the deal is with Renault and Heidfeld with flames and explosions.

I don't think Heidfeld has much to do with it unless there is a self-destruct button which is manually operated. I think those forward facing exhausts make the Renault particularly vulnerable to fire.

 

[KekeTheKing]

......I don't really think that Ferrari are all that quick.......Massa is good indication of exactly what a Ferrari is.....

You said they don't have straight-line speed. The speed-traps say they do. Felipe beat Fernando in qualifying yesterday and finished 6th after hitting the wall.

It might be nice to think that the car is a dog that Alonso is dragging onto the podium, but its not. Ferrari are closer to the front than they have been in a long time.

Edit - Massa turned the fastest lap of the race as well. Fernando the 3rd fastest.

 

[tranquility2k9]

All this talk of Hamilton losing it because of the intermediate call is rubbish. The fact of the matter is that if he was on the prime tyre, like everyone else, he would have been leading and would no way have been the first person to come in and put intermediates on. The reason he did in the circumstances is because his super-soft tyres were almost due for a change anyway and so he had kind of lost the race either way and may have well of gone for the more risky strategy as if it did rain harder, it could have paid off.

The primary and largest reason by far that he lost the race was when his team decided to put him on super-soft tyres, even though they'd seen that Webber and Vettel were putting in good times on the prime tyre. The lap later, Button goes out on the prime tyres, which Button confirmed was a decision made by the team and not him. Therefore, McLaren were expecting Hamilton to pull out a 20+ second lead on the super-softs to get a gap to pit again. Quite frankly, it was a ridiculous gamble that was unnecessary. The golden rule when you are leading is to follow the decision of everyone behind, that way you can't get it massively wrong, but ensure you maintain your lead. Had Hamilton of gone onto the prime tyre, he may have struggled at the end, but that was far less of a risk than trying to get a 20second gap on the option tyre. The fact of the matter is neither Button or Vettel appeared to struggle on the prime tyre and it looked like it could have gone much longer.

Well done McLaren you've lost another 1-2 through a stupid brainless decision!

 

[Sarinaide]

I don't think Heidfeld has much to do with it unless there is a self-destruct button which is manually operated. I think those forward facing exhausts make the Renault particularly vulnerable to fire.

Makes one feel rather unsafe sitting in that seat, poor old Nick seems to be the one getting a warm bottom all the time.

You said they don't have straight-line speed. The speed-traps say they do. Felipe beat Fernando in qualifying yesterday and finished 6th after hitting the wall.

It might be nice to think that the car is a dog that Alonso is dragging onto the podium, but its not. Ferrari are closer to the front than they have been in a long time.

Probably closer yes, but nothing that will make RB and McLaren get their knickers in a twist over. Massa hit the wall, Alonso had three total moments today, frankly if Massa is not in the top 6 then it will be time to move on.

 

[Brogan]

Alonso has scored more points than any other driver in the last 4 races.

I think you need to reassess your view of the Ferrari.

 

[Galahad]

All this talk of Hamilton losing it because of the intermediate call is rubbish. The fact of the matter is that if he was on the prime tyre, like everyone else, he would have been leading and would no way have been the first person to come in and put intermediates on. The reason he did in the circumstances is because his super-soft tyres were almost due for a change anyway and so he had kind of lost the race either way and may have well of gone for the more risky strategy as if it did rain harder, it could have paid off.

The primary and largest reason by far that he lost the race was when his team decided to put him on super-soft tyres, even though they'd seen that Webber and Vettel were putting in good times on the prime tyre. The lap later, Button goes out on the prime tyres, which Button confirmed was a decision made by the team and not him. Therefore, McLaren were expecting Hamilton to pull out a 20+ second lead on the super-softs to get a gap to pit again. Quite frankly, it was a ridiculous gamble that was unnecessary. The golden rule when you are leading is to follow the decision of everyone behind, that way you can't get it massively wrong, but ensure you maintain your lead. Had Hamilton of gone onto the prime tyre, he may have struggled at the end, but that was far less of a risk than trying to get a 20second gap on the option tyre. The fact of the matter is neither Button or Vettel appeared to struggle on the prime tyre and it looked like it could have gone much longer.

Well done McLaren you've lost another 1-2 through a stupid brainless decision!

The only explanation I can see is that they didn't expect Hamilton to be able to make it to the end without a further stop.

 

[Dizzi]

hi Guys

First post, be kind! Been reading for a couple of years & just plucked courage to join in.
Just watched the replay of the exploding Renault (seriously quick Nick exiting that car!). Do you think Renault will be investigated for unsafe release of the car?

 

[Brogan]

Welcome Dizzi.

It's a good question as quite clearly it had issues, but in those cases don't they prefer the car to be out of the pit lane?
I do however thing forward facing exhausts will be looked at again.

 

[Galahad]

Interesting. Button just revealed on the BBC that McLaren told him to queue behind Hamilton for inters, but said that he had no intention of doing so.

 

[sushifiesta]

Apparently Hamilton was suffering from radio problems during the race, which contributed to the suspect tyre calls.

Welcome to the forum Dizzi. There are mechanics and engineers etc. all around the pit lane so I think had he stayed and the small explosion happened there it could have caused more damage. A bit of engine could easily have hit someone on the pit wall for example.

 

[KekeTheKing]

Thinking back, this race was a near carbon-copy of Australia 2010. Lewis and Jenson battled briefly on the circuit with Hamilton ending up out front. Strategy calls are made, with Hamilton's necessitating an extra pit stop. Button breezes to the win with his teammate out of the picture.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Probably closer yes, but nothing that will make RB and McLaren get their knickers in a twist over.

Well the speed trap says that the Ferrari is faster than the Red Bull and the McLaren in a straight line. I think I'll trust the numbers. A better start and a better quail performance for Fernando would have put him in contention but he got mugged by both Mercs. It's easy to blame the car. I'm sure that's not what Fernando is doing. When you don't get it right, you need to look at what went wrong and try to fix it. Excuses are pretty counterproductive.

 

[KekeTheKing]

Interesting. Button just revealed on the BBC that McLaren told him to queue behind Hamilton for inters, but said that he had no intention of doing so.

Stunning. When McLaren make a good strategy call they usually fall ass-backwards into it.

 

[Brogan]

Interesting. Button just revealed on the BBC that McLaren told him to queue behind Hamilton for inters, but said that he had no intention of doing so.

Did he say whether that was just because he didn't want to queue and lose time, or whether he thought he didn't need inters?

There definitely seems to have been an element of (bad) luck as to which driver was in front approaching the pit lane for that lap.

 

[Sarinaide]

Alonso has scored more points than any other driver in the last 4 races.

I think you need to reassess your view of the Ferrari.

I have always said that Ferrari are the third (if you assume that RB are the best followed by McLaren) when you consider all the circumstances. On the necessary performance needed Ferrari are still behind the contending cars (considering Ferrari are ipso facto contenders too), I think reliability yes, Ferrari are really good with only Massa's gearbox failure at Catalunya being a blemish, other than that, Ferrari is comparitive but not better.

Speaking of Ferrari, Massa again having pit stop problems, I think the next three weeks he needs to be working on his pit box entry, rocking his midships way to much and this is a continued problem it seems.

 

[Galahad]

Did he say whether that was just because he didn't want to queue and lose time, or whether he thought he didn't need inters?

He didn't specify.

 

[Jen]

hi Guys

First post, be kind! Been reading for a couple of years & just plucked courage to join in.
Just watched the replay of the exploding Renault (seriously quick Nick exiting that car!). Do you think Renault will be investigated for unsafe release of the car?

Is this the fastest the quick Nick has ever gone?

 

[Sarinaide]

Well the speed trap says that the Ferrari is faster than the Red Bull and the McLaren in a straight line. I think I'll trust the numbers. A better start and a better quail performance for Fernando would have put him in contention but he got mugged by both Mercs. It's easy to blame the car. I'm sure that's not what Fernando is doing. When you don't get it right, you need to look at what went wrong and try to fix it. Excuses are pretty counterproductive.

Watching the start again, Fernando got off to a flyer, then was twitching about in turn 1 and didn't get on the power allowing a McLaren and the two Mercedes to drive past, more conditions related today. But essentially Ferrari's inability to get onto the front row is becoming a problem, and speed guns will time up when someone has open air to floor it, when it counts, the speed and all the goods are missing.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

I have always said that Ferrari are the third (if you assume that RB are the best followed by McLaren) when you consider all the circumstances. On the necessary performance needed Ferrari are still behind the contending cars (considering Ferrari are ipso facto contenders too), I think reliability yes, Ferrari are really good with only Massa's gearbox failure at Catalunya being a blemish, other than that, Ferrari is comparitive but not better.

Speaking of Ferrari, Massa again having pit stop problems, I think the next three weeks he needs to be working on his pit box entry, rocking his midships way to much and this is a continued problem it seems.

Hard to say. It's a question of conditions and the track. Bit more track temp and the Ferrari could easily gain where McLaren lose.

On average, I think both Ferrari and McLaren are now ahead of the Red Bull in most circumstances. There is not much to choose between the McLaren and the Ferrari, although the conditions this weekend and last played marginally into McLaren's hands.