Would Hamilton or Alonso have achieved as much in a Red Bull as Vettel has?
- Thread starter Brogan
- Start date
Interesting. The challenge is not to be the fastest racer, the greatest tactician or best mix of the two.
Where Vettel has been so strong is that I think he is very nearly the perfect compliment to the strengths of the Red Bull team.
Having said that, I do believe that both Hamilton and Alonso could have achieved a string of titles in the Red Bull with the existent team around them.
Whether they would have won by 1 point or 100 points - that's too big a question.
Where Vettel has been so strong is that I think he is very nearly the perfect compliment to the strengths of the Red Bull team.
Having said that, I do believe that both Hamilton and Alonso could have achieved a string of titles in the Red Bull with the existent team around them.
Whether they would have won by 1 point or 100 points - that's too big a question.
I have made my comments ExtremeNinja.
I don't see the need for you to turn yet another thread into a meta discussion nor browbeat others into accepting your position as the one and only, which you seem to be doing more and more of late.
I don't see the need for you to turn yet another thread into a meta discussion nor browbeat others into accepting your position as the one and only, which you seem to be doing more and more of late.
That was as much you as it was me, Brogan. We have now both made our comments and so let's move on. I really don't want to get embroiled in such pointless discussions, either.
There is also a difference between having a position on something and providing a clarification on something. I will never force my opinions on others. It is for people to develop their own opinions and I am happy to accept them as that, whether I agree with them or not. I am agnostic to a large extent on most of the things that people have strong opinions about on this forum.
There is also a difference between having a position on something and providing a clarification on something. I will never force my opinions on others. It is for people to develop their own opinions and I am happy to accept them as that, whether I agree with them or not. I am agnostic to a large extent on most of the things that people have strong opinions about on this forum.
Wombcat
Podium Finisher
I took the amount of wins into account. I think Alonso would have done roughly the same, or slightly better than Vettel. I think Hamilton would have done slightly less. Especially last year, where I think he would have took the title, but with his personal problems would have taken a win or two less.
Personally i think that if Hamilton or Alonso had been in that Red Bull from the start of 2009 then i would say that they would have won the title in 2009, 2010, and 2011.
Kamui-FastestChefInTheWorld
Points Scorer
and 2012.
The thing with this question is thats its about more than whether Hamilton or Alonso could just jump into a Red Bull and get results its about having a team you can work with and a team who want to work with you. As we've seen with Alonso's move to Mclaren and Kimi's move to Ferrari is that the best drivers in the world can move to the best team and it might not work simply because he doesn't want to work for the team and or the team doesn't want to work for him.
What Sebastian Vettel has been very good at is getting the whole team behind him and I think its very visable that they're happy to work hard fir him because they like him and he works hard for them. His delight at the constructors championship last year meaning his whole team would get bonuses was very obvious. I believe thats why Red Bull have been so succesful and certainly why they've come back this season. The team are prepared to put the hours in for him.
Would they do the same for Lewis and Fernando? Who knows. Possibley and even if they didn't I'm sure they'd get good results anyway.
I think Sebastian's 'skill' over the last three years has been motivating the team around him to give him their best. I think its a very under rated skill in F1 and one all the true greats had at somepoint.
so based on that info I'm voting no as I think Fernando pushes his team too hard and Lewis doesn't push them enough.
What Sebastian Vettel has been very good at is getting the whole team behind him and I think its very visable that they're happy to work hard fir him because they like him and he works hard for them. His delight at the constructors championship last year meaning his whole team would get bonuses was very obvious. I believe thats why Red Bull have been so succesful and certainly why they've come back this season. The team are prepared to put the hours in for him.
Would they do the same for Lewis and Fernando? Who knows. Possibley and even if they didn't I'm sure they'd get good results anyway.
I think Sebastian's 'skill' over the last three years has been motivating the team around him to give him their best. I think its a very under rated skill in F1 and one all the true greats had at somepoint.
so based on that info I'm voting no as I think Fernando pushes his team too hard and Lewis doesn't push them enough.
Hmm I think Vettel might edge them both as his attributes seem to suite his 'lights to flag' style, however largely they would match Vettel. I also think that both Hamilton and Alonso would have won the title in the 2009 Red Bull.
I know this isn't the point of this thread but I don't think Vettel would have been as successful in Hamilton's or Alonso's racing boots.
I have not seen anything to suggest that Alonso or Hamilton would not have been able to match Vettels achievements.
That said, it is an interesting conundrum, especially as there is little more than tenuous links to compare in a like for like manner, hopefully that will be remedied in the years to come, but I think that the Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton are generally considered to be the top three for a reason, and I see no reason why things would have taken a different turn whichever of those three were behind the wheel.
That said, it is an interesting conundrum, especially as there is little more than tenuous links to compare in a like for like manner, hopefully that will be remedied in the years to come, but I think that the Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton are generally considered to be the top three for a reason, and I see no reason why things would have taken a different turn whichever of those three were behind the wheel.
Actually, that's point b in the opening post
Horses for courses, isn't it. I think the recent Red Bulls have been quite dependent on a good qualifying and good pace on cold tyres in the first two laps. On that basis I feel Hamilton would have been better suited than Alonso. 2010 is the difficult one for me - Fernando wasn't at his best - although he wouldn't have had to beat himself! I'm going to join FB on the fence I think.
mnmracer
Points Scorer
Would Hamilton have as many pole positions? Likely yes.
Would Alonso have as many pole positions? Likely not.
Would Alonso have as many wins? Likely yes.
Would Hamilton have as many wins? Likely not.
Would Alonso have taken the title in 2010 with the unreliable RB6 and losing Korea? Possibly.
Would Hamilton have taken the title in 2010 with the unreliable RB6 and losing Korea? Hell no.
Would Vettel have outperformed Button in the 2011 McLaren? Likely yes.
Would Vettel have capitalized on the pace of the McLaren when it was on this year? Likely yes.
As for the McLaren 2010, or either of the Ferrari's, we've seen pretty similar results in off-pace cars from all of them this year, both impressive and just picking up some points.
In conclusion:
They would certainly not have gotten the same all around results. Probably Alonso would have won 2010, both would have won 2011, both with dominance, but not the same level.
Would Alonso have as many pole positions? Likely not.
Would Alonso have as many wins? Likely yes.
Would Hamilton have as many wins? Likely not.
Would Alonso have taken the title in 2010 with the unreliable RB6 and losing Korea? Possibly.
Would Hamilton have taken the title in 2010 with the unreliable RB6 and losing Korea? Hell no.
Would Vettel have outperformed Button in the 2011 McLaren? Likely yes.
Would Vettel have capitalized on the pace of the McLaren when it was on this year? Likely yes.
As for the McLaren 2010, or either of the Ferrari's, we've seen pretty similar results in off-pace cars from all of them this year, both impressive and just picking up some points.
In conclusion:
They would certainly not have gotten the same all around results. Probably Alonso would have won 2010, both would have won 2011, both with dominance, but not the same level.
mnmracer
Points Scorer
Depends, do we answer the question to such an extraordinary question based on most races (like Vettel has not crashed in most races), or do we answer it based on extraordinary races (Belgium 2011, Japan 2012)Following on from mnmracer s point - would Hamilton or Alonso have crashed into Webber in Turkey?
One could flip that round and say that he's pissed off a second and a half up the road come the end of the first lap in most races.
mnmracer
Points Scorer
Don't change the subject to dodge the question, it's not a style that suits you
mnmracer
Points Scorer
I didn't know there were people still stuck in the Vettel can't overtake mantra...
- In normal circumstances, Vettel overtakes people without crashing into them, just like Hamilton and Alonso.
- In extraordinary circumstances, Hamilton and Alonso may crash into people, just like Vettel.
