The Racing Line and avoidable accidents

[Fenderman]

Fenderman, I agree with most of what you are saying; especially about a sport for grown ups. But I question whether this started wit Hamilton... I'm sure Senna and Schumacher were just as guilty and there must have been plenty before then.

All I'm saying (and I think that's the part you are agreeing with) is that we are now getting what we have been asking for - i.e. more overtaking and less penalising - but also that we have this wave of voices shouting "his fault! Blame him, no Him, no HIM!!!!" and penalise the ......"

Yes, on a mere handful of occasions in their careers Schumi and Senna clearly and deliberately turned in on opponents but these have been extremely rare occurences. The sport is pretty clean but there have been inept attempts at preventing passes (and, yes dodgy attempted passes) but these have been (in the main) judgemental errors rather than intentional acts of defiance or aggression. If fans could just chill out a bit and stop the thoughtless accusations then they just might enjoy the show somewhat more. That's all. Doesn't seem too difficult to me.

 

[Hamberg]

but also that we have this wave of voices shouting "his fault! Blame him, no Him, no HIM!!!!" and penalise the ......"

Spot on but I wouldn't put that down to just the fans. The drivers do it over the radio for the purpose of race control, I've heard it from Hamilton, Alonso and Button on more than one occasion and I dare say if the media interest was there we'd hear it from a lot of other drivers too. It's become an attitude that will be hard to shake but the buck largely stops with the teams and drivers.

I do agree however that there has to be an allowance for heat of the moment comments and that these should be disregarded as more often than not they will get over it and prefer no penalty.

 

[Speshal]

Yes, on a mere handful of occasions in their careers Schumi and Senna clearly and deliberately turned in on opponents but these have been extremely rare occurences. The sport is pretty clean but there have been inept attempts at preventing passes.

 

[Fenderman]

I trust you noted the extreme diplomacy with which I expressed my position. This forum lark is a bit like the Art of War in which deflection and avoidance allow a retreat intact and a rearming of ones KERS with which to strike another day. Did I mention that I have rather large hands?

 

[Fenderman]

thats blown it

 

[Sarinaide]

Due to lack of visibility in those rubbish mirrors, generally the driver behind is the one who could avoid an incident. Alonso-Button for example, Alonso was on the line into a one line corner, Buttons nose cone was in the wrong place a the wrong time. Yet Button-Hamilton is more the blame of Button due to the movement on the straight on the straight, but that was the racing line. In Indycar there is that stale "no blocking rule" (On street/non-oval tracks) which makes any sort of fight impossible. It would be tragic if that were adopted in F1.

My main issue goes back to the old complaint of inconsistent steward decisions, Di Resta was punished for a very similar accident to Button-Alonso (Di Resta was Button).

So after a slightly irrelevant answer I think these issues could only be solved by adopting anti-racing rules. But if they stay then drivers have to know when they are in the right, and when they are not.

I like that a lot, nice.

I still hold that over the weekend Jensen ought to have known that 1] He was off the race line 2] wasn't past Alonso to get back across onto the racing line 3] He pushed the braking point to far and was unable to steer the car into the chicane and 4] Alonso was always going to be on the right line so he was always going to intersect that line.

As they say in Top Gun "the move worked but we have shown it as an example of what NOT to do.

I agree with the Di Resta comparison in the final chicane, and Paul to the penalty for it.

I am sorry if it seems like a subjective opinion but I can assure you if Alonso pulled a move like that I would have no problems criticising the choice and/or Penalty, tis the way it is. I go back to my opinion that you get calculated and then you get gambles, Button gambled and he walked out with the best hand possible.

 

[Sarinaide]

Interestingly Alonso was penalised for that very thing but other drivers (Sutil and Rosberg?) haven't been.

Malaysia, yeah Lewis to a Pen for double move and Alonso for causing an avoidable accident, though my beef with the decision was 1] No accident 2] It was a "bit to late" by Alonso, racing mistake and he paid enoug for it by needing to pit with 8 laps to go.

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

Here's a copy of my comment in the Canadian Grand Prix discussion thread, which has just been dumped ( a little prematurely in my view) into the Season Archive:

I just watched the highlights on Catch-up TV last night, and noticed something really weird.
During the latter part of the race, once visibility had improved and the dry line had appeared, I couldn't help noticing that on the main straight that dry line, that 'normal' racing line as the commentators had described it much earlier in the race, didn't go anywhere near the pit wall. Nor did Button. His left-hand wheels never ventured much more than halfway across the left-hand grid markings, leaving easily a car's width to the edge of the track.

 

[Fenderman]

Nice one, Chad. It's observations like that that encouraged me to limit my involvement in that thread and the "Chump" thread. I have tried to shed a little light on the racing line question but, well, folk's will believe what they want to believe, it seems.

Oh, and what about the successful overtakes initiated in precisely the way that LH had initiated his attempt on JB?

 

[Quintessentially]

Di Resta’s penalty was ridiculous and invalidates the point that Hamilton is singled out by the stewards.
The rules in their current form disadvantage the aggressor (key phrase being ‘causing an avoidable accident’) especially when the guy ahead refuses to yield and defends his position at any cost, but you have to accept that generally the guy pulling off the move from behind is almost always the best placed to avoid a collision.

 

[Quintessentially]

Here's a copy of my comment in the Canadian Grand Prix discussion thread, which has just been dumped ( a little prematurely in my view) into the Season Archive:

I just watched the highlights on Catch-up TV last night, and noticed something really weird.
During the latter part of the race, once visibility had improved and the dry line had appeared, I couldn't help noticing that on the main straight that dry line, that 'normal' racing line as the commentators had described it much earlier in the race, didn't go anywhere near the pit wall. Nor did Button. His left-hand wheels never ventured much more than halfway across the left-hand grid markings, leaving easily a car's width to the edge of the track.

Could you explain further? Hamilton literally had two wheels on the grass so was there really enough room for another car on the edge of the track as you put it?

 

[Fenderman]

I don't believe this thread is about whether people are being singled out by the Stewards. it's about the racing line and whether that confers any rights and privelages on the driver who is on it and whether or not people should be penalised for something bacause they have to defend or attack by going off the racing line. Di Resta's case is another fine example of a racing incident being blown out of proportion by some as a result of an over cautious, health & safety gone mad view.

 

[Brogan]

The problem is there are no written rules or magic formula about what is and isn't acceptable.

To highlight 2 very similar examples (without turning this into a thread about any particular driver):

• Hamilton on Schumacher at Monaco - considered a fantastic pass, successful because Schumacher gave room
• Hamilton on Maldonado at Monaco - considered an ill-judged attempt and Hamilton was penalised, because Maldonado didn't give room

In both cases they were virtually identical, with the attacking and defending drivers being in literally exactly the same positions - this was confirmed using still frames of the video footage. The only difference was the behaviour of the defending driver.



If an attempt is successful then it's hailed as a great move.

If it fails then it's off to the stewards and humans being humans, there will always be inconsistency, bias and favouritism, whether the stewards (and fans) like to admit it or not.

F1 has always been this way, and always will be this way.
With the new rules and more opportunities to pass, it's only going to increase the number of contentious issues, disagreement amongst fans, and possible incorrect rulings from the stewards.

 

[f1fansp]

I still hold that over the weekend Jensen ought to have known that 1] He was off the race line 2] wasn't past Alonso to get back across onto the racing line 3] He pushed the braking point to far and was unable to steer the car into the chicane and 4] Alonso was always going to be on the right line so he was always going to intersect that line.

I agree with the Di Resta comparison in the final chicane, and Paul to the penalty for it.

I'm starting to change my opinion on the Button-Alonso incident. Some have likened it to the DiResta-Heidfeld crash at the final chicane, but on KekeTheKing's overtaking video, there's a very similar move between Petrov-Webber (albeit Webber overtaking on the outside) - about 02:00 in. Petrov clearly is in line, but off the racing line, brakes early to be able to make the corner. Although not from the same overhead shot, I recall a similar appearance on Button's onboard, in that he appeared level, then braked much earlier. In his case, not early enough as he still ran into the line Alonso was taking.

Having initially seen it as purely 'racing incident', I'm now erring now fault on Button's side.

 

[Fenderman]

Could you explain further? Hamilton literally had two wheels on the grass so was there really enough room for another car on the edge of the track as you put it?

That needs no explanation here since it has been discussed to great lenghts on more appropriate threads. But if we must .. what Chad has pointed out illustrates an inconsistency in an explanation given regarding where subjects were in relation to the racing line but that in fact the racing line actually leaves a cars width of tarmac between it and the pit wall. This can be clearly seen by the dry line in the latter stages o the race.

 

[Brogan]

Could you explain further? Hamilton literally had two wheels on the grass so was there really enough room for another car on the edge of the track as you put it?

Before this thread turns in to another discussion about Hamilton and Button, I would just urge you to watch this.
http://cliptheapex.com/threads/2011-canadian-grand-prix-chump-of-the-weekend.2937/page-4#post-57422

If we could keep this thread generally about overtaking in general, that would be great.
If it continues down the Hamilton-Button path, which has already been discussed to death, then I expect Speshal will be along shortly to delete posts and/or close the thread.

 

[Quintessentially]

@ Brogan – Yeah I don’t wasn’t to revisit this Button-Hamilton debate again but I genuinely didn’t understand the point you were trying to make. I am unable to view the link unfortunately. F1 cars are approximately 1.8m wide I believe and I doubt there are many racing lines that would be able to accommodate two cars without one being on the dirt or the wrong part of the circuit.
Also, the racing line is not always a straight line and what may look like a space enough to accommodate two cars sometimes merges into one line at the end of the straight, as per racing line between turn 13 and 1 at Canada, which is pretty much a skew.

 

[Road of Bones]

I am reminded of a clip I saw of Hunt complaining to Colin Chapman after being taken out of the lead by Andretti - the gist of it was "I was fairly defending my position - it's up to him to make the pass cleanly. You wouldn't expect your drivers to just give up their positions, would you?". Colin appeared to agree with him (Dutch GP in '77, I think).

I don't understand the comments about the driver in front having responsibility to avoid an accident from behind - as long as the leading driver doesn't move about in the braking zone, or make more than one change of line leading up to it, surely the onus is on the following driver not to stuff it into the back of him - the chasing driver has the better overall view after all! (and that's before you take into account the effects of spray/small mirrors).

Then of course you have the viewpoint of once the following driver has committed to the pass, it is accepted that the driver under attack should not then "turn in" on his pursuer - this seems to be a commonly-used excuse for those that attempt marginal overtaking manoeuvers that fail due to contact ("he turned in on me!"). There have also been unscrupulous incidents where a driver under attack has deliberately turned-in on a pursuer to deny him the way through, force a penalty or even take him out of the race altogether (no names, no pack-drill - I'm not looking to drag up old contraversies here ).

People seem to have been using rather nebulous ideas/rules about "the racing line" to justify their viewpoints on racing incidents during the Canadian GP, but it should be remembered that we do not have access to all the cars' telemetry or all the camera angles that the race stewards have available to them. The penalties meted out in the last couple of GPs have seemed more to me about the stewards sending a warning out to all the drivers that optimistic lunges that result in contact will not be tolerated any longer - those drivers that people seem to feel have been hard done-by as a result have simply put themselves in the position of the stewards' scrutiny in the first place.

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

Could you explain further? Hamilton literally had two wheels on the grass so was there really enough room for another car on the edge of the track as you put it?

My point was this:
Other than when Hamilton tried to pass him, Button never went as far across to that side of the track. Added to which, the dry line that developed later seemed to corroborate the idea that the 'racing' line wasn't that far over either. It was a much straighter diagonal line from the 'Wall of Champions' across towards but not as close to the pit wall side further up the straight, beyond the finish line. So why did Button go that far to the right so early, on that one occasion?

Edit:
Brogan/Speshal; that's my last point specifically on Button / Hamilton I promise, but I felt I needed to explaing my thinking to Quintessentially.

 

[Hamberg]

Some really interesting comments here but I've noticed that it's gone back in some cases to, the driver on the racing line has the privilege. Can those that are sticking with that argument explain why other than, because it's the racing line?

Edit: I hadn't seen RoB's comments at the time of writing the above

I know the mirrors are small but some drivers (Schumacher, Button and Alonso are usually great at this) seem to understand where their competitors are whereas others don't. As Brogan has pointed out some give room (great racing), others don't (attackers fault).

We then have some that can clearly see their competitor (as demonstrated through footage and stills) but because they have the racing line they feel it is their right to slam the door and that the other driver should never have been where they were. If the attacking driver could make the corner using an alternative line and there was enough room for the driver ahead to give them room why should the driver ahead be given the automatic right to continue?

Surely good defending (Alonso/Vettel are very good at this) means anticipating your opponents move and ensuring you make your car wide enough to stop the attacker getting themselves into that gap in the first place - which sometimes means changing your preferred line. Not just saying, I'm on the racing line and unless you can get your car ahead of mine on the straight and onto or onto the racing line ahead of me going into the corner then you're not allowed to pass, and if you try then I have a right to hit you.