The One Hit Wonders
- Thread starter cider_and_toast
- Start date
Thanks c_a_t, brilliant stuff. You've made a few controversial selections but backed them up so well I find myself without much ammunition!
I suppose in some ways the lesson to be learned is that circumstance makes a huge difference to how a driver is viewed in retrospect. Jody Scheckter was one of the fastest drivers - along with Peterson - of the 1970s, and if he'd been in the Ferraris that Lauda got the benefit of then I think he'd be regarded as one of the all-time greats. On the other hand, considering the way his careers have gone since he left F1, maybe he'd have got bored after the first or second title and gone to do something else? Very possible.
There's no question that Hawthorn, Hunt and Rosberg all benefited from the misfortunes of others to win their titles, and none of them looked likely to win another title, but they all used what they had at their disposal brilliantly. In '76 Hunt took the ageing M23 to places it had not reached with Mass and Emmo in the previous season, and in the finale at Fuji he was given the biggest challenge of his life to take the title. And if the greatness of drivers is measured by the success they have in inferior cars, Keke must be right at the top of the tree, given the enormous horsepower disparity between his Williams and the Ferrari, Renault and Brabham turbos in '82.
Full credit c_a_t for some thought-provoking work.
I suppose in some ways the lesson to be learned is that circumstance makes a huge difference to how a driver is viewed in retrospect. Jody Scheckter was one of the fastest drivers - along with Peterson - of the 1970s, and if he'd been in the Ferraris that Lauda got the benefit of then I think he'd be regarded as one of the all-time greats. On the other hand, considering the way his careers have gone since he left F1, maybe he'd have got bored after the first or second title and gone to do something else? Very possible.
There's no question that Hawthorn, Hunt and Rosberg all benefited from the misfortunes of others to win their titles, and none of them looked likely to win another title, but they all used what they had at their disposal brilliantly. In '76 Hunt took the ageing M23 to places it had not reached with Mass and Emmo in the previous season, and in the finale at Fuji he was given the biggest challenge of his life to take the title. And if the greatness of drivers is measured by the success they have in inferior cars, Keke must be right at the top of the tree, given the enormous horsepower disparity between his Williams and the Ferrari, Renault and Brabham turbos in '82.
Full credit c_a_t for some thought-provoking work.
Galahad said:
I believe that it is wrong to consider this a criticism of the drivers themselves and hence feel the need to defend them. It is almost a greater compliment to say that a driver took his only chance than to say he probably could have won others.
Certainly in my similar thread, and I believe in cat's thread, we have borne in mind that these are all drivers at the pinaccle of their careers winning at the top level.
As for Keke, I have previously demonstrated on this site that the only drivers to win the title whilst not in the Constructors' Champion's Car are...
| 1958 | Mike Hawthorn | Ferrari | Vanwall |
| 1973 | Jackie Stewart | Tyrell | Lotus |
| 1976 | James Hunt | McLaren | Ferrari |
| 1981 | Nelson Piquet Sr. | Brabham | Williams |
| 1982 | Keke Rosberg | Williams | Ferrari |
| 1983 | Nelson Piquet Sr. | Brabham | Ferrari |
| 1986 | Alain Prost | McLaren | Williams |
| 1994 | Michael Schumacher | Benetton | Williams |
| 1999 | Mika Hakkinen | McLaren | Ferrari |
| 2008 | Lewis Hamilton | McLaren | Ferrari |
I am pretty sure that Keke is the only one to win in a car that finished 4th in the WCC!
Williams cause in 1982 wasn't helped by Carlos Reutemann clearing off after the first couple of races and then, for some inexplicable reason, choosing to replace him with Derek Daly. No disrespect to Daly but he wasn't the greatest driver who ever lived and Williams had the chance to Derek Warwick who may have done a slightly better job.
Andrea_Moda_Rules
Podium Finisher
Thanks C_A_T what a fantastic read. Really interesting.
I disagree about Hill though, remember MSch did get banned for 3 races, and DQ from another couple, although this is not the place for another Hill Vs Schumi 1994 discussion, after such a good thread.
Correct me if im wrong, but im sure Reutemann left rather then Williams dumping him for Daly. partly tbh due to things going on in the team, and i think from poltics going on with the country at the time, he couldn't be doing with the hassle. I cant find the book, i read it in now. but im pretty sure i read ti somewhere.
I disagree about Hill though, remember MSch did get banned for 3 races, and DQ from another couple, although this is not the place for another Hill Vs Schumi 1994 discussion, after such a good thread.
FB said:
Correct me if im wrong, but im sure Reutemann left rather then Williams dumping him for Daly. partly tbh due to things going on in the team, and i think from poltics going on with the country at the time, he couldn't be doing with the hassle. I cant find the book, i read it in now. but im pretty sure i read ti somewhere.
Yes Reutemann did leave of his own free will AMR. I think some of the team politics in 1981 came back to haunt him as he had a good chance of the Championship but many felt the team didn't want him to win because of some of the goings on earlier in the season when he refused to move over and let Jones win a race. I was never sure why he carried on at all into 1982.
My question was more as to why they chose Daly as his replacement, not a driver who would have been top of my list of replacements for anyone, let alone someone of Reutemann's quality. If I remember rightly Mario Andretti stood in for one race after Reutemann's departure.
Anyway, straying a bit
My question was more as to why they chose Daly as his replacement, not a driver who would have been top of my list of replacements for anyone, let alone someone of Reutemann's quality. If I remember rightly Mario Andretti stood in for one race after Reutemann's departure.
Anyway, straying a bit
I'm guessing the answer to the "Why Daly" question was simply, who else was available at the time? Remember we're talking about the season being underway here so a lot of the top quality drivers would have been confirmed in other series.
Derek Daly quotes in Maurice Hamilton's "Williams" book:
"I got the drive in 1982 because my manager at the time, Guy Edwards, initiated it through Charlie Crichton-Stewart. I don't think I spoke to Frank until he called me and said, 'I think I'm going to give you this drive.' They were the actual words he used: 'I think I'm going to give you this drive.' It was obviously a situation where he had to fill the seat with somebody. He wasn't really sure what that somebody was like or what they could do, but he was forced to fill the seat because Reutemann had gone"
I guess in terms of the One Hit Wonders thread, it's a good job Williams didn't hire a better driver otherwise there's no way they would have won the drivers title that year. With a stronger challenge to Rosberg the two Williams drivers would have taken enough points off each other in a year where every point counted to ensure that the drivers title would have gone to Pironi or possibly even Watson.
Derek Daly quotes in Maurice Hamilton's "Williams" book:
"I got the drive in 1982 because my manager at the time, Guy Edwards, initiated it through Charlie Crichton-Stewart. I don't think I spoke to Frank until he called me and said, 'I think I'm going to give you this drive.' They were the actual words he used: 'I think I'm going to give you this drive.' It was obviously a situation where he had to fill the seat with somebody. He wasn't really sure what that somebody was like or what they could do, but he was forced to fill the seat because Reutemann had gone"
I guess in terms of the One Hit Wonders thread, it's a good job Williams didn't hire a better driver otherwise there's no way they would have won the drivers title that year. With a stronger challenge to Rosberg the two Williams drivers would have taken enough points off each other in a year where every point counted to ensure that the drivers title would have gone to Pironi or possibly even Watson.
An article I wrote 3 years ago with regards to single world championship winning drivers.
Thought I'd bump it in relation to Lewis Hamilton's recent comments about maybe not winning another title.
Thought I'd bump it in relation to Lewis Hamilton's recent comments about maybe not winning another title.
I think maybe you will have to remove Kimi from the list in due course cider_and_toast 
I say with hope in my heart....
I say with hope in my heart....
Il_leone
World Champion
cider_and_toast
Thanks for this post.. I know it may raise a few eyebrows mentioning Raikkonen in there
I am glad to see someone has backed me that Newey left Williams partly because he was not happy with the way Hill was treated not just only he wanted more control. i remember he was not happy he was not consulted about it given he was using Hill's input to develop the cars
Its a bit of long list
Hawthorn - should thank Moss for sportsmanship because he was about to be DQed and Moss said he did not break any rules. He retired having achieved all he could
Scheckter - Was a quick driver but I think he realised GV was very fast and was unfortunate GV was not selfish and followed team orders . GV I remember had one or two races which were more remembered for his bravery and determination. Jody said GV wanted to win every lap not the race to prove he was the fastest. He thought 1980 was embarrassing and felt he did not need any more of this and left
Jones - You could say he was betrayed by Reutemann in Brazil 1981 and he returned the favour by saying the team should treat their drivers equally and provide him with a spare car as well in the final race and did not help Reutemann. The ultimatum its me or him to Williams clearly did not work and probably ruined his reputation
Mansell - we all know he was robbed by the cruellest fate and told by his team to stay out in 1986. 1987 the loose wheelnut was another misfortune when clear in front at Hungary...that would have made the scores 70 - 70 to him and Piquet at Japan
Off course Piquet did not score in either race which meant Mansell could have been champ
Andretti - I think it was more out of favour to help Lotus because he never committed to F1 full time
Villeneuve - well it is a perfect example how success can come too easily for him and it overinflated his ego
- With Hill as his teammate he was very much still finding his feet to get up to speed. He actually respected Damon
- With Frenzten - he was not as accomodating in trying to seize his chance to be No1 and world champion . He really made a real mess and should thank Damon for the last lap glitch in Hungary
The title went to his head thinking he was a superstar and got Schumacher running scared of him.
Thinking he was as good or better Schumacher he tried to prove with BAR.. the results was amusing with Adrian Reynard mouthing about winning the first race. The marketing behind two livery was a disaster and Villeneuve himself called the team's reliability as pathetic
Little did people realise behind the scenes it was not a happy atmosphere to work in with the stress levels - some were working 16 hours a day and some of the team went on a drinking binge at Monaco. One of the managers made sure he was compensated before getting the bullet. Sure enough people were getting sacked as Pollock said " Other heads would roll before mine in response if his position was under threat"
Villeneuve apparently would not listen to anyone and it did not matter if he was wrong because he always had Pollock behind him
Lets say when BAT decided to clear out the mess for the embarassment and Dave Richards was in charge the team was heading in the right direction... Villeneuve's last straw was when he first rubbished Button before he joined the team with his infamous retirement quote if he got beaten by Jenson . Followed up by refusing to half his salary to help the team develop the car he was forced out
In between he rejected opportunities at both MClaren and Renault ( the former over pay)
Flavio tried to use his anger at BAR to help Renault get 2nd in the constructors having been out for nearly a year but did not happen
A comeback at Sauber in a last hope of possibly landing a Ferrari drive did not happen as the team became BMW.
Hunt managed to change his reputation from Hunt the shunt and took the opportunity because of Fittipaldi shock move
Unfortunately he lived life in the fast lane and as success came quickly so did the attention. No doubt supremely talented but unfortunately the ground effect took over and his rock n roll life meant he did not enjoy the politics
Further more Peterson's crash really hurt him quite badly when he realised it may not have been Patrese's fault... his last hurrah at Wolf failed to spur him
I know there is no Button but I think he probably will be on here unless he sticks around for Mclaren Honda
Rosberg -was a journeyman who struggled to get a drive and it is only because the Williams row with Jones and Reutemann the opportunity came and the fact that Ferrari and Renault failed to seize their changes
he did win in the most fortunate of circumstances but at last in subsequent seasons he proved he was a capable front runner when Williams allowed him to. Unfortunately had to make way for Piquet because Honda insisted as part of the deal with Williams when the team was just about to come good. He probably would have won the 1986 title or certainly been a contender
Thanks for this post.. I know it may raise a few eyebrows mentioning Raikkonen in there
I am glad to see someone has backed me that Newey left Williams partly because he was not happy with the way Hill was treated not just only he wanted more control. i remember he was not happy he was not consulted about it given he was using Hill's input to develop the cars
Its a bit of long list
Hawthorn - should thank Moss for sportsmanship because he was about to be DQed and Moss said he did not break any rules. He retired having achieved all he could
Scheckter - Was a quick driver but I think he realised GV was very fast and was unfortunate GV was not selfish and followed team orders . GV I remember had one or two races which were more remembered for his bravery and determination. Jody said GV wanted to win every lap not the race to prove he was the fastest. He thought 1980 was embarrassing and felt he did not need any more of this and left
Jones - You could say he was betrayed by Reutemann in Brazil 1981 and he returned the favour by saying the team should treat their drivers equally and provide him with a spare car as well in the final race and did not help Reutemann. The ultimatum its me or him to Williams clearly did not work and probably ruined his reputation
Mansell - we all know he was robbed by the cruellest fate and told by his team to stay out in 1986. 1987 the loose wheelnut was another misfortune when clear in front at Hungary...that would have made the scores 70 - 70 to him and Piquet at Japan
Off course Piquet did not score in either race which meant Mansell could have been champ
Andretti - I think it was more out of favour to help Lotus because he never committed to F1 full time
Villeneuve - well it is a perfect example how success can come too easily for him and it overinflated his ego
- With Hill as his teammate he was very much still finding his feet to get up to speed. He actually respected Damon
- With Frenzten - he was not as accomodating in trying to seize his chance to be No1 and world champion . He really made a real mess and should thank Damon for the last lap glitch in Hungary
The title went to his head thinking he was a superstar and got Schumacher running scared of him.
Thinking he was as good or better Schumacher he tried to prove with BAR.. the results was amusing with Adrian Reynard mouthing about winning the first race. The marketing behind two livery was a disaster and Villeneuve himself called the team's reliability as pathetic
Little did people realise behind the scenes it was not a happy atmosphere to work in with the stress levels - some were working 16 hours a day and some of the team went on a drinking binge at Monaco. One of the managers made sure he was compensated before getting the bullet. Sure enough people were getting sacked as Pollock said " Other heads would roll before mine in response if his position was under threat"
Villeneuve apparently would not listen to anyone and it did not matter if he was wrong because he always had Pollock behind him
Lets say when BAT decided to clear out the mess for the embarassment and Dave Richards was in charge the team was heading in the right direction... Villeneuve's last straw was when he first rubbished Button before he joined the team with his infamous retirement quote if he got beaten by Jenson . Followed up by refusing to half his salary to help the team develop the car he was forced out
In between he rejected opportunities at both MClaren and Renault ( the former over pay)
Flavio tried to use his anger at BAR to help Renault get 2nd in the constructors having been out for nearly a year but did not happen
A comeback at Sauber in a last hope of possibly landing a Ferrari drive did not happen as the team became BMW.
Hunt managed to change his reputation from Hunt the shunt and took the opportunity because of Fittipaldi shock move
Unfortunately he lived life in the fast lane and as success came quickly so did the attention. No doubt supremely talented but unfortunately the ground effect took over and his rock n roll life meant he did not enjoy the politics
Further more Peterson's crash really hurt him quite badly when he realised it may not have been Patrese's fault... his last hurrah at Wolf failed to spur him
I know there is no Button but I think he probably will be on here unless he sticks around for Mclaren Honda
Rosberg -was a journeyman who struggled to get a drive and it is only because the Williams row with Jones and Reutemann the opportunity came and the fact that Ferrari and Renault failed to seize their changes
he did win in the most fortunate of circumstances but at last in subsequent seasons he proved he was a capable front runner when Williams allowed him to. Unfortunately had to make way for Piquet because Honda insisted as part of the deal with Williams when the team was just about to come good. He probably would have won the 1986 title or certainly been a contender
In my view it was the sole reason for Newey leaving Williams and it was also the reason Renault abandoned them and the sport for a while, Frank will never admit it but sacking Damon was the biggest mistake he ever made and it sent his team into decline, one which they have still not been able to recover from till this day..
Even now when you see Newey and Damon together you can still see the mutual respect and affection they have for each other...
If and when Josh Hill enters F1, I can imagine that Newey would love to build him a championship winning car...
Ranks up there with Sir Frank testing Ayrton Senna and saying afterwards "Yes he's very quick but at Williams we don't really want to take on young drivers, we prefer drivers with experience". Mmmmmh, Couple of great years with Rosberg and Laffite weren't they.
Il_leone
World Champion
Mephistopheles
The famous quote by Bernard Dudot then head of Renault sport when asked about Williams' indifferent performance in 1997 when with clearly the fastest car why they were not so dominant " If Damon Hill was still driving for Williams he would be leading the driver's championship by now " - hardly a vote of confidence to both Villeneuve and Frentzen but very true indeed
Hill's time away from Williams' improved his status oddly certainly as a development driver
The famous quote by Bernard Dudot then head of Renault sport when asked about Williams' indifferent performance in 1997 when with clearly the fastest car why they were not so dominant " If Damon Hill was still driving for Williams he would be leading the driver's championship by now " - hardly a vote of confidence to both Villeneuve and Frentzen but very true indeed
Hill's time away from Williams' improved his status oddly certainly as a development driver
Il_leone
World Champion
cider_and_toast
Why did Frank Williams sign Patrese for 88 - a journeyman driver then when a youngster in the other car might be worth the risk
Strangely since David Coulthard being promoted Williams have gone the other way since then in pushing young drivers through
- he must rue having to move Button because of contracts at the time with his other drivers.... I am sure Jenson would have given Schumacher a good run for 2003 title
Why did Frank Williams sign Patrese for 88 - a journeyman driver then when a youngster in the other car might be worth the risk
Strangely since David Coulthard being promoted Williams have gone the other way since then in pushing young drivers through
- he must rue having to move Button because of contracts at the time with his other drivers.... I am sure Jenson would have given Schumacher a good run for 2003 title
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