The Decline and Fall of Once Great Drivers

[cider_and_toast]

Every F1 WDC that lived/survived, except for Hawthorne, Stewart, Prost who retired as active WDCs and Brabham and Fangio to a lesser degree, were fallen/ zeroes.


Farina, Phill Hill, John Surtees, G. Hill, D. Hulme, E. Fitipaldi, James Hunt, N. Lauda, M. Andretti, A. Jones, N. Piquet Snr., N. Mansell, D. Hill, Häkkinen, Räikkönen.

I'd also disagree with that statement. It's one thing to go on after you should have retired as was the case perhaps for Graham Hill, Alan Jones and Nigel Mansell but another to still be winning races in your final season before calling it a day.

In the two years after his final championship, Mika Hakkinen won 6 more races and after two awfull years in a declining Lotus team Nelson Piquet came back to win 3 races in two years with Beneton. Hardly a sign that eitehr driver had declined and fell.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

This got me thinking about the decline of great drivers and who fell the lowest from once great heights. To this end I would like to offer up Graham Hill

Hi FB, I imagine we're using the term "great driver" freely here. I wasn't around to see G Hill but from whatever i've read since childhood, the benchmarks in the 1960s were - in summary - Moss, then Clark (after Moss' accident), then Stewart (after Clark's accident) with Gurney and Rindt being the next most feared (by Clark and JYS respectively).

So, the 'rated' greats in the 1960s were Moss, Clark, Gurney, Stewart, Rindt (cronologically). Hill, as you alluded to later in your OP, was an 'also ran' in comparison and won his 2nd WDC in lieu of Clark having been killed early that season. Perhaps he should have called it a career at the end of the 1969 season?

In my time of watching F1, it seems like these drivers stuck around too long/came back inadvisedly:

Andretti (bad move to Alfa Romeo), Jones (should have stayed on his farm in Aus), J Villeneuve (friends don't make good business partners), Schumacher (over-estimated his ability in relation to the current hugely talented driver era).

 

[Fenderman]

Some history: tell me Hill wasn't a great driver when he is still the only driver on record with the Triple Crown in an age when the odds on surviving a motor racing career were pretty grim.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_Crown_of_Motorsport

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Hill was great in that context but I think the OP and my own post was in context to the truly great Formula One drivers of the time. I think D Hill was a very good F1 driver. In comparison, Damon Hill was a very good F1 driver...but he wasn't as 'great' as his Williams teammates, namely (in order) Prost, Senna and Mansell or the likes of Schumacher and Hakkinen in his prime.

 

[FB]

No Ray, I consider Graham Hill to have been a Great Driver. He won two World Championships, 14 Grand Prix, 36 podiums, 13 poles and 10 fastest laps. He raced, and beat, some of those acknowledge as the greatest in the sport in their era and was one of the greatest characters F1 has ever seen. I have no doubt that Graham Hill was one of F1 greatest drivers.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

My bad, FB I've been aware of Graham Hill's Formula One stats and knew a long time ago that he'd won Indy and Le Mans. What I mean't was that Clark was the benchmark in the time between Moss' accident and his own death...and Clark feared/respected Gurney more than any other. Gurney had no WDCs, neither did Moss which means that Formula One stats aren't necessessarily the true measure of 'greatness' per se'.

Some old time journalists who saw them all race rate Moss, Villenevue and Peterson ahead of G Hill...and none of those three won WDCs. Having said that, Graham Hill had some great motor racing achievements and likely is one of the Top 20 or 25 Grand Prix drivers of all time.

 

[teabagyokel]

You can't judge everything by what the journalists say. They're human. They're open to the same biases as you, me and FB. And always remember that drivers who were killed in action have a somewhat whitewashed reputation.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

True, TBY.

Where would you and FB rate Clark, Stewart, Moss, G Villeneuve, G Hill, Rindt, Peterson and Gurney amonst each other? out of curiosity?

 

[teabagyokel]

Christ, don't ask me questions like that, Ray. Since I wasn't around back then, I can't have an answer for you, but I can make some general points which have struck me over the course of the research I've done.

• It struck me that Dan Gurney was the leader of the Brabham team over and above his three time World Champion team-mate and boss in 1964-5. He seems to have had a "wrong place, wrong time" career.
• Stirling finished 2nd in the Championship on 4 consecutive occasions. No Fangio, and Stirling wins the WDC.
• Peterson never really got anywhere near winning the WDC.
• Rindt died at 28, a World Champion. We will never know what he could have done.
• Jim Clark finished races not in first place 24 times. He won 25 races. That is phenomenal in anyone's book!
• Graham Hill won the Triple Crown. No-one else has, whether you call the F1 leg Monaco or the WDC.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

So, then, TBY:

1 Clark
2 Moss
3 Stewart
4 Villeneuve
5 G Hill
6 Rindt
7 Gurney
8 Peterson

???

 

[teabagyokel]

You will never tempt me into giving an order, Ray.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

How close is it, though, TBY?

 

[FB]

Sorry Ray, came across all pompous and self righteous, you're as entitled to you opinion as anyone else. I've made the mistake of posting threads on here trying to tempt others into rating drivers and it always very divisive so I'll pass if that's okay. The only comment I will make comes from Jackie Stewart, he maintained that to be a truly great driver you had to win 1 in 4 races. Not many have managed that.

 

[teabagyokel]

Fangio, Ascari, Clark, Schumacher, Stewart, Prost and Senna. Specifically.
Moss and Vettel are the only others to make 1 in 5!

 

[FB]

For my sins I once started this thread

http://cliptheapex.com/threads/who-is-the-greatest-driver-ever.1474/

 

[Fenderman]

TBY said: Stirling finished 2nd in the Championship on 4 consecutive occasions. No Fangio, and Stirling wins the WDC.

... and not forgetting the incident in 1958 when Stirling sacrificed the WDC to speak up in support of Mike Hawthorn who was facing a penalty for reversing on the track. Give me a mo' and check which race that was! (if TBY doesn't post it first!)

http://www.maxadventure.co.uk/news_detail.php?article=124

"This sporting attitude cost him the 1958 Formula 1 World Championship. When rival Mike Hawthorn was threatened with a penalty in the Boavista Urban Circuit in Porto, Portugal, Stirling defended Hawthorn's actions. Hawthorn was accused of reversing in the track after spinning his car. Hawthorn went on to beat him by one point...."

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

I won't get into a debate but i'll say a few things:

Fangio was better than Moss and you have to understand the circumstances of Ascari and Ferrari's successes before Moss came along.

What about Nuvolari?

Clark was the benchmark in the 1960s...all the way until Senna arrived.

Prost has a mighty group of teammates to contend with (Senna, Lauda, Mansell, Rosberg...D Hill even...and Arnoux) meaning he shared A LOT of wins and titles with them...and in some cases, the teammates prevented him from taking the WDC (Arnoux in 1982, Mansell in 1990)...in comparison...

...in comparison, Schumacher won most of his titles in a weak post-Mansell/post-Prost/post-Senna driver era and a heavilly loaded playing field with Number 2 teammates to contend with.

To me, therefore, Prost's 4 WDCs and 51 wins are worth WAY more than Schumacher's 7 WDCs and 91 wins.

 

[Slyboogy]

Is this thread about great drivers that have won a WDC that declined, or in general a great driver that declined?

 

[FB]

Any driver you consider great Sly. What got me thinking about this subject was watching Michele Alboreto wandering away from a Minardi at Suzuka in 1994, a driver I grew up with as a race winner, potential World Champion and the first Italian to drive for Ferrari in ???? years when he went there in 1984.

Were you thinking of anyone in particular?

 

[Slyboogy]

Well, not really but, Jarno Trulli and Fisichella come to my mind, both tipped to be future world champions, Trulli even beating Alonso in 2004 until well I can't say for real what happened as I don't have the facts, but seems as if Briatore wasn't happy and kicked him out.

Now look at these two drivers, one a reserve the other with no motivation down the field.

I think Trulli could have been a future world champion if that fiasco at Renault didn't happen, it was clear that he was a great match for Alonso and was beating him before he got the sack, I am sure if he stayed at Renault in 2005 with no problems with the team, 2005 would have been really interesting, Trulli and Alonso picking points off of each other, and then that would have put Raikkonen right in the mix too.