Williams - the inexorable slide...

[Galahad]

That's not to say Romain won't end up at Williams of course, to me it seems reasonably plausible, just not for that reason.

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

How about Senna in a Williams Renault?

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

How about Senna in a Williams Renault?

It's a rather morbid thought.

I'd like it if Bruno went "his own way". But it's not an impossibility. Bruno is bringing money like Maldonado and Petrov...and Williams - again like 'Renault' - aren't exactly being too proud about taking it...so, one never know.

I'd like to see Bruno push Petrov in these next 6 races and make his own mark. I was very impressed by his Saturday performance at Spa in very tricky conditions.

Who knows, it could be Brazilian-for-Brazilian with the added sweetner of a budget for Williams as opposed to having to pay Rubinio.

It wouldn't be a bad prospect...A bit morbid though...

 

[sobriety]

Unlikley I know, but if they take him on and deliver him a car that's capable of winning races it would be somehow fitting.

 

[Il_leone]

Obviously building success takes time, now while they built an unreliable engine it was also a fast engine, and just look at the engine over the last 5 years. It's been the fastest and most reliable engine with the fuel consumption being average.

As for Mercedes being impatient they have been in F1 for over 15 years as an engine supplier now, that in itself must show that they have a commitment to F1, especially seeing as they have a works team now.

BMW tried F1 with as an engine supplier in 1950s, 1960s and 1980s. Then they were with Williams for five years and shared a significant amount of success, after realising that their partnership wouldn't bear the fruit they were after they left. So they partnered with Sauber and spent hundreds of millions of pounds and countinued for another 4 years with considerable success. Then they finally quit once the world had just entered a financial collapse and other manufacturers were doing the same thing, keeping their money. Because at the end of the day manufacturers are in F1 for one reason only, publicity and if their accounts don't justify the vast amount of money they are spending in F1 then they're out.

I think after having a 9 year stab at F1 you can hardly say BMW put no effort into it and left right away.

And it is racist because you likened the way BMW and Mercedes acted as an "arrogant German attitude" which is calling all Germans arrogant, when instead it was just 2 companies going about their business in a manner they saw fit.

I'll say it again Mercedes don't wait around for results and are ruthless

When Sauber was not good enough for them they left after 2 seasons after planning to takeover the team as Mercedes if it was successful. Instead Mercedes jumped ship and joined Mclaren

After 2 winless seasons with Mclaren including the signing of Mansell who was never rated by Ron Dennis because Mercedes insisted they want a big name driver to justify their investment followed by the narrow car debacle...Mercedes were thinkin about pulling the plug until Mclaren got NEwey on board

Just look at the way Mercedes ( Daimler) handled the Chrysler merger...supposedly to be the biggest car company ever...it was not because they misled Chrysler when it was in fact a TAKEOVER and tried to impose themselves on Chrysler to crack the US market and ending up throwing billions down the toilet

THe engine building previously was done by Ilmor consortium based in Britain until Mercedes decided again they should control things from their side as another corporate division and it clearly cost Mclaren a few world titles

History is repeating itself with the way things have gone at BRawn( now MErcedes GP)..how can a team that were world champions be also rans with Ross Brawn in charge...its no coincidence part of the problem is the way Mercedes HQ interfere with the team affairs..they are really wasting Ross Brawn and Nico Rosberg
Brawn into Mercedes turned from a small close knit family team to just another division of corporate Mercedes

 

[Il_leone]

I'll add Williams thought BMW spent a lot of time moaning and being overcritical of the team thinking they were better and blamed Williams for producing dud chassis and thinking the problem is not on their side

Williams said they had a harmonious working relationship with both Honda and Renault as engine partners

A stereotype of Germans are efficient, supremely confident (arrogance) about them and their athletes and they tend to be control freaks certainly the way Mercedes and BMW have attempted to conduct things within teams

Mclaren managed to survive their working relationship with Mercedes because Ron Dennis is a shrewd businessman and knows that Mercedes should not be given too much controlling stake at Mclaren to force him out and turn the team into Mercedes . Thats why he sold some of his stake to middle east backers to make it difficult for Mercedes to buy that stake to control the team.

The Brawn opportunity through the engine partnership gave Mercedes its ticket finally to run its own F1 team and one that was near the front or at least thats what they thought

 

[no-FIAt-please]

how can a team that were world champions be also rans with Ross Brawn in charge...its no coincidence part of the problem is the way Mercedes HQ interfere with the team affairs..

Well they were only world champions in the first place because they built probably the most expensive F1 car in history with Honda's cash and had twice as long as McLaren and Ferrari to do it who were focused on 2008. Then add to the fact that the double diffuser ruling went their way, compounded with the fact that nobody could mount a real title challenge against Brawn as drivers had mishaps. It's not Mercedes' fault that they havn't been able to mount a successful title challenge, it's to be expected that there is a transition phase (look at Red Bull) as many things changed in the team, not to mention once the money dried up at Brawn development stopped on that car which would have affected the W01. As for Mercedes being corporate, you don't think McLaren, Ferrari and even Red Bull are corporate? These are massive companies who are spending ludicrous amount of money to attain success, they may talk about how passionate they are but at the end of the day they arn't here to have a good time, they're here to win.

I'll say it again Mercedes don't wait around for results and are ruthless

Then I guess I'll say it again, Mercedes have been an engine supplier with McLaren for over 15 consecutive years now, sharing both success and failure for which both companies should take responsibility for. Now if you were to say the same thing about Honda I would agree with you but the fact is Mercedes have been in F1 too long to leave now.

A stereotype of Germans are efficient, supremely confident (arrogance) about them and their athletes and they tend to be control freaks certainly the way Mercedes and BMW have attempted to conduct things within teams

Why don't you just stop with the massive generalistions, they're companies and not countries!

Anyway, we're getting off topic here so this will be my last post on this subject.

 

[Il_leone]

Well they were only world champions in the first place because they built probably the most expensive F1 car in history with Honda's cash and had twice as long as McLaren and Ferrari to do it who were focused on 2008. Then add to the fact that the double diffuser ruling went their way, compounded with the fact that nobody could mount a real title challenge against Brawn as drivers had mishaps. It's not Mercedes' fault that they havn't been able to mount a successful title challenge, it's to be expected that there is a transition phase (look at Red Bull) as many things changed in the team, not to mention once the money dried up at Brawn development stopped on that car which would have affected the W01. As for Mercedes being corporate, you don't think McLaren, Ferrari and even Red Bull are corporate? These are massive companies who are spending ludicrous amount of money to attain success, they may talk about how passionate they are but at the end of the day they arn't here to have a good time, they're here to win.

Lessons from HOnda, Toyota and BMW have shown you do not run F1 like a corporate company because the pace of development F1 just does not fit in. Difference between the teams you mentioned and Mercedes is they leave the running of the team and decisions to the men in F1 paddock not from some corporate office and interfering. Rumours were Ross was annoyed with Mercedes bosses interfering with the running of the team and rightly so..who knows more about F1 -- the muppets in the boardroom or the guy who guided Schumacher to 7 titles

I should say BMW had the same amount of time as Brawn to develop a decent car for 2009 and flopped because they were not clever enough in reading the rules



Then I guess I'll say it again, Mercedes have been an engine supplier with McLaren for over 15 consecutive years now, sharing both success and failure for which both companies should take responsibility for. Now if you were to say the same thing about Honda I would agree with you but the fact is Mercedes have been in F1 too long to leave now.


BUT Mercedes were trying to takeover Mclaren but were thwarted by Ron's business nous otherwise we would not have Mclaren still in F1..they would have been labelled Mercedes. When they came back Norbert was being quizzed whether Mercedes should be in F1 at all back in 1997..they could have stuck with Sportscar/GT where they were always front runners and winning more importantly not finishing 5th or 6th

Why don't you just stop with the massive generalistions, they're companies and not countries!

Because that is the German culture is it not ..its like saying the English/ Brits like underdogs and tend to have bulldog spirit about them

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

It's a rather morbid thought.

I don't see it as particularly morbid, but in a way rather appropriate.
Lotus Renault appear to be grooming Grosjean for 2012, so I don't really see a seat there for Senna; and I have been pleasantly surprised by his performances recently, so it would be a pity not to see him on the grid next year. Williams could do worse, I think.

 

[sobriety]

In my experience of business dealings with massive German chemical companies, they have two ways of doing things 'Our Way' and 'The wrong way'. If your way is different from the way they think something should be done, even if you have a proven track record, you're going to have problems.

 

[sportsman]

Possibly but there is no doubt that they both visted Williams' HQ, according to Joe Saward anyway...

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2011/09/17/the-real-story-raikkonen-williams-and-sutil/

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/94700 Adrian Sutil is prepared to wait it out for a final decision from Force India about a contract for next year, after rubbishing speculation that he visited Williams recently for talks with the Grove-based outfit.
Force India has said it will wait until December to decide on its driver line-up for 2012, which means its current drivers could be left in limbo if they are not kept onboard and other seats are already taken.
Sutil said in Singapore on Thursday, however, that he is relaxed about his situation - and he dismissed rumours that he was in talks with Williams after reports suggested that both he and Kimi Raikkonen have recently visited the factory.
"I didn't go there. I wasn't there. I have no contacts with them," said Sutil when asked by AUTOSPORT about the Williams rumours.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Because that is the German culture is it not ..its like saying the English/ Brits like underdogs and tend to have bulldog spirit about them

That's another nationalistic generalisation and obviously does not excuse the first.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

In my experience of business dealings with massive German chemical companies, they have two ways of doing things 'Our Way' and 'The wrong way'. If your way is different from the way they think something should be done, even if you have a proven track record, you're going to have problems.

I'm currently working with the largest German TelCo and I find them to be enormously flexible. They employ us for our creativity and expertise of eCommerce and general online user experience and product design. They certainly don't tell us how to do our jobs and pay us a he'll of a lot of money to tell them what to do. Alternatively, I have recently done a large piece of work for a largely publicly-owned british bank who have been infinitely more difficult to work with due to the arrogance of thinking they know best even after paying millions of pounds to us in acknowledgement that they don't.

Companies have thier own cultures which do not necessarily reflect the stereotypes of national culture.

 

[Road of Bones]

Is there a possibility that Petrov & Maldonado could renew their GP2 rivalry at Williams next year...?

 

[RickD]

How about Raikkonen & Maldanado?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula_one/15024539.stm

 

[Road of Bones]

I'll believe it when I see it, and not before.

The consumption of a certain item of headgear has been mentioned by myself, with regards to that topic. I would rather not have to follow-up what I regarded as an empty threat...

 

[Galahad]

Thing is, I can see the attraction, but it's a big, big risk for Williams I think. Kimi might bring more sponsorship...but then, he might not. If his comeback went as well as Schumacher's has, would companies be queuing up at Grove? I'm sceptical.

His motivation at Ferrari was questioned; his motivation in rallying has plainly been waning. If Williams build another dog (true to form) how long until he finds something else to amuse himself?

In the past teams in financial difficulty have taken big gambles and it's rarely worked out well. It feels like Prost 2000-01 all over again at the moment.

 

[FB]

In the past teams in financial difficulty have taken big gambles and it's rarely worked out well. It feels like Prost 2000-01 all over again at the moment.

One that springs to mind as starting to work was Clay Regazzoni at Ensign, which bought Unipart in as main sonsor, and then that concrete block got in the way at Long Beach, but I'm maybe drifting off topic...

As I mentioned in the Raikkonen thread I think a Kimi at 80% has got to be better than Rubens but, as G says, what if he starts to drop below that?

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

What's Kimi at 95% like?

 

[Galahad]

What's Kimi at 95% like?

Like Rubens at 40 years of age.