FIA Ferrari's team orders WMSC hearing

[Grizzly]

Bit late to this...

What a mess is all i can say.

There should not even be room for the different opinions in this thread. The rules should be wrapped up tight enough to prevent it this disparity.

Its not surprising Ferrari received no further punishment, all this case does is highlight the problem that has always been there since the rule came in.

I hate what happened as much as the next man, but don't see how to ever police it. Its a team sport, if your a driver lucky enough to drive with a team that proclaims equality, good for you. If you sign for Ferrari or a Ferrari-esq team, I'm sure you know what your getting into.

Grizzly /out

 

[sportsman]

It doesn't add up I agree.
But lift up carpet sweep carefully and replace carpet fits quite well.
The FIA knew that if they left things as they were then then within a very short time the matter would no longer be headlines.
They were also aware that any further sanctions would result in Ferrari going to a civil court and undoubtedly having the decision overturned.
In the last "high profile" WMSC hearing, I was one of the few posters who stated that the WMSC had exceeded their authority and the punishments that they handed out would be overturned in a civil court.

Which in the course of time they were.

 

[gally5]

Very interesting Brogan, like you say, the decision smacks of inconsistency.

Jru, the problem lies with the fact that as Ferrari accepted the judgement of the stewards, they must surely accept they were guilty of team orders? The course of action they have taken actually hints to them bowing down to Ferrari.

If there is a lack of proof that they fixed the race, the only course of action was to overturn the decision of the stewards. As Ferrari themselves accepted that decision, they accepted they were found to be guilty of race fixing, leaving open whatever punishment the WMSC felt like handing out.

This decision is essentially the WMSC saying 'we are punishing an innocent team for doing nothing wrong.'

 

[Speshal]

I think a little levity may be required

 

[Brogan]

Took me a while to spot that

 

[gally5]

thats absolutely brilliant!

 

[Grizzly]

hahaha. so it was satanic messages in that bar code, but not Marlboro...

 

[Brogan]

The full decision has now been posted online by the FIA.

They sneakily added a link to the press release from yesterday, rather than publishing a new document on the main page.

Here it is for anyone who's interested:
http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/pressreleases/wmsc/2010/Documents/08092010-wmsc-decision.pdf

For those who can't be bothered to read it, here are the key points.

Charges

Ferrari's Response

Reporter's Response

Conclusion

Decision

The key point here is both drivers were told by their engineers to reduce engine speed a few laps prior to Alonso being allowed past (Reporter's Response). Alonso subsequently increased his engine speed without Massa being told likewise.

That explains why Alonso was faster than Massa and quite clearly demonstrates favouritism within Ferrari towards Alonso.

 

[gally5]

Cheers for the summary Brogan, I just had a look at the full report.

Jean Todt definitely contradicted the report didn't he! They appear to have found Ferrari guilty as charged and done nothing. Especially with regards to article 151(c). In fact there they have contradicted themselves! On page 7 of the document, under the decision part B, they specifially state as follows

'....in the Judging Body of the WMSC's view prejudicial to the interest of motor sport and contrary to article 151(c) of the sporting code'

'It is important for the FIA to act to protect the sporting integrity of the FIA Formula One World Championship, and to ensure the podium finish has been achieved by genuine on track racing.'

Penalty for the above breach? I don't see one! only penalty I see is for breach of 39.1

Oh well, never mind eh!

 

[teabagyokel]

Can I just make a few definitions as to how I see the world.

Favouritism: The favour of one driver over the other regardless of performance
Team Orders: The favour of one driver over the other in order to attempt to win a Championship

In my opinion, the latter is better than the former.

In addition, you can't just punish Ferrari because the switch was one-and-two without punishing people for switches further down the field, and in 2008 the FIA did not punished a two-and-three switch (Ferrari) in China, a four-and-five switch (McLaren) in Germany and even a one-and-two switch (McLaren) in Britain. This issue was just about the only thing McLaren weren't punished for in 2008!

On a consistency basis I cannot endorse any further action against Ferrari.

And I don't believe there is an FIA favouritism problem in this case either; I believe that all teams would get the same indulgence on this issue.

 

[Brogan]

Sorry tby but I don't agree.
Regardless of what may or may not have happened in the past, Ferrari have been found guilty of breaching articles 39.1 and 151c for illegally implementing team orders.

Yet the WMSC chose not to sanction them any further or even reverse the positions, which was the least they could have done.

What also makes no sense is that Jean Todt, the president of the FIA, has stated that there is insufficient proof that they had implemented team orders.

So they are guilty as charged yet not guilty due to lack of proof.

Which is it?

Is it any wonder the average fan on the street considers the FIA to be corrupt and in bed with Ferrari?

 

[teabagyokel]

Sorry tby but I don't agree.
Regardless of what may or may not have happened in the past, Ferrari have been found guilty of breaching articles 39.1 and 151c for illegally implementing team orders.

Each breach of 151(c) is not the same and is hence not worthy of the same punishment

Yet the WMSC chose not to sanction them any further or even reverse the positions, which was the least they could have done.

I feel that assumes that Massa would win the race, and I'm not sure that is the case. Equally, Massa is more guilty of the breach of the rules than Alonso. He may be the 'victim' but he squeezed the brake pedal on that straight.

What also makes no sense is that Jean Todt, the president of the FIA, has stated that there is insufficient proof that they had implemented team orders.

So they are guilty as charged yet not guilty due to lack of proof. Which is it?

I think what has happened is that the FIA believe Ferrari has had team orders (which they have been found guilty of) but would prefer to apply a nominal fine than have the court's credibility tainted by the successful appeal by Ferrari in CAS.

Is it any wonder the average fan on the street considers the FIA to be corrupt and in bed with Ferrari?

No, but they haven't ever charged anyone for this particular offence, despite repeated breaches of the rules by McLaren and Ferrari.

I'm no fan of team orders, but I feel that it would be unfair to penalise Ferrari with a points deduction when they have not penalised similar offences.

Just to quote from the 2009 Overtaking Thread:

What I have not included [Turkish GP]

Lap 25 - 10 Glock passed 9 Trulli for 6th (appeared to be a team orders request)

I don't remember any recriminations from that pass.

 

[Brogan]

I feel that assumes that Massa would win the race, and I'm not sure that is the case. Equally, Massa is more guilty of the breach of the rules than Alonso. He may be the 'victim' but he squeezed the brake pedal on that straight.

Well Massa was doing fine until they were both told to turn their engines down and Alonso was subsequently told to turn his back up.
So equally, I see no reason why Massa couldn't have won it if he hadn't been hampered by his own team.

While it's true Massa did let Alonso past, Ferrari had to ask 4 times.
I think Massa realised after the 4th "request" it was a choice of racing as Ferrari's 2nd driver or not at all.

 

[teabagyokel]

That is my weakest point; the crux of my argument is that no-one else has been punished for it, despite many repeated breaches, and hence Ferrari should not be a special case.

Of course I don't always have to trust an organisation that gets its own car numbers wrong.

Fernando is #8 guys; ie. he started the season as a second driver.

 

[Brogan]

Christian Horner's view which, for once, I fully agree with.

"The penalty for what happened at Hockenheim was $100,000," said Horner. "Does that therefore mean that you could do that in the remaining five or six races this year?"

"As we have seen, based on what happened with Ferrari in Hockenheim, then there was – other than the financial penalty at the event – no effect on their performance.

"So theoretically if any team was in that situation and wished to move their cars around, or needed to, then a precedent has been set."

No matter what, the FIA/WMSC will not be able to issue a fine greater than $100,000 or they will find themselves in court.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86509

 

[sportsman]

So my fellow Apex clippers what do we do this weekend.Do we swallow our anger and watch practice, qualifying and the race as usual.Except we boo and hiss everytime a Ferrari or anyone connected with Ferrari appears on screen.

But I suspect that I in common with all of you will watch the race as we usually do.
Thats the problem with F1.We have take whatever brown stuff they throw at us, but still the TV viewing figures will be as high as usual.

 

[laFrau]

Well, I suppose the MWSC resolution was to be expected, Carlos Gracia was one of those who had to take the decision and he had already spent the last few weeks telling the Spanish media what he thought about that.

I can not think of any democratic country of the world, where a judge can go to the media to say what he’s going to decide before the hearing, but that’s how the FIA works.

Today, in Cadena Ser, the most important Spanish radio station, Carlos Gracia has said that Ferrari’s argumentation was the following:
“Massa was told that he was slower than Fernando to motivate him, but Massa got angry with the message and decided to test brake”
http://www.cadenaser.com/deportes/artic ... rdep_2/Tes

I hope this is just one of Gracia’s antics and not what Ferrari really argued yesterday. I have never liked Massa, and I already saw this coming last year, but I’m beginning to feel very sorry for him.

 

[Brogan]

So my fellow Apex clippers what do we do this weekend.Do we swallow our anger and watch practice, qualifying and the race as usual.

Of course!
There's no way I'm missing a race

Thanks laFrau, that's fairly damning for a WMSC member to be talking to the media about the case.
As far as I can tell, the brake test statement is an outright lie as I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere else.

 

[gally5]

Sorry tby but I don't agree.
Regardless of what may or may not have happened in the past, Ferrari have been found guilty of breaching articles 39.1 and 151c for illegally implementing team orders.

Each breach of 151(c) is not the same and is hence not worthy of the same punishment

Yet the WMSC chose not to sanction them any further or even reverse the positions, which was the least they could have done.

I feel that assumes that Massa would win the race, and I'm not sure that is the case. Equally, Massa is more guilty of the breach of the rules than Alonso. He may be the 'victim' but he squeezed the brake pedal on that straight.

What also makes no sense is that Jean Todt, the president of the FIA, has stated that there is insufficient proof that they had implemented team orders.

So they are guilty as charged yet not guilty due to lack of proof. Which is it?

I think what has happened is that the FIA believe Ferrari has had team orders (which they have been found guilty of) but would prefer to apply a nominal fine than have the court's credibility tainted by the successful appeal by Ferrari in CAS.

Is it any wonder the average fan on the street considers the FIA to be corrupt and in bed with Ferrari?

No, but they haven't ever charged anyone for this particular offence, despite repeated breaches of the rules by McLaren and Ferrari.

I'm no fan of team orders, but I feel that it would be unfair to penalise Ferrari with a points deduction when they have not penalised similar offences.

Just to quote from the 2009 Overtaking Thread:

What I have not included [Turkish GP]

Lap 25 - 10 Glock passed 9 Trulli for 6th (appeared to be a team orders request)

I don't remember any recriminations from that pass.

While I agree with some of your arguments here teabagyokel, especially the first part, I also have to ask you, do you think it is correct that they should be found guilty of this charge and receive no punishment? I ask as the FIA documents from the WMSC appear to indicate that the $100,000 fine was for the breach of 39.1.

 

[Speshal]

.Except we boo and hiss everytime a Ferrari or anyone connected with Ferrari appears on screen.

This is usual in my household

Ha during the 90's watching with my Dad he would mutter "arsehole" under his breath everytime Schumacher appeared