Another poor season
- Thread starter DOF_power
- Start date
Muddytalker
Points Scorer
snowy said:
gah! I was going to mention something about Indycar earlier, with the comment that "I've only seen half the race, so don't spoil the ending please..."My own fault for being on a motorsport forum I guess
I can't access the site due to being stuck with ie6 so hope the link works 
but maybe this is the solution for you DOF_power?
http://historicformulaone.com/
but maybe this is the solution for you DOF_power?http://historicformulaone.com/
MajorDanby said:
1] There was never any golden era.
Just some things that were better back then, and there's things that are better now (safety, reliability, wages).
2] Indycar doesn't have a thousand passes per race, some races as just as bad or worse.
And NASCAR suck for most part (1.5 cookie cutter tracks), with the COT being an aero nightmare (hence the need for restarts all the time).
You guys should stop with these cliches about american racing.
3] Aero advances ?!
The current F1 aero is stuck the 70s, pre 77/78 to be exact. Passive wings, shark fins and so forth are not new nor advanced, just more efficinent.
Ground effect and/or movable wings is the superior aerodynamic solution, and was banned by FIA because they chose power outputs from 700 hp up with high drag/ turbulence/ sensitivity aero instead of 450-500 hp and low drag efficient aero.
Formula 1 actually experienced aero devolution from 82/1983 onwards.
FB said:I can't access the site due to being stuck with ie6 so hope the link works
http://historicformulaone.com/
No it's not.
Modern cars with old banned ideas (movable wings, ground effects, active suspensions, AWD), I don't want pre carbon fibre death traps.
I would like to see a return to the circa 1969 front wing rules: single-element canard-type wings which can only extend to either the inside edge of the front tyres or correspond to the front track. This would massively reduce front grip and result in a corresponding reduction in rear downforce to keep the car in balance. In other words, mechanical grip would become vastly more important than aerodynamic downforce, thereby making cars less sensitive to loss of grip when following other cars. This should, in theory, make passing easier.
So let me get this right, and if I have got anything wrong in my summary I'm sure you will correct me, what you are looking for is:
- Modern safety cell construction techniques
- Ground effect and/or moveable wings for a lower drag coefficient
- Lower engine power, perhaps half of the current level
- Enclosed wheels
- Electronic drive aids such as active suspension. Would you also want power steering & ABS brakes?
On brakes, do you propose to get rid of carbon brakes and replace them with something less efficient?
Also, would you want CVT transmissions, continue to allow the current flappy paddle arrangement or go back to a gated gear shift lever?
Do you allow driver adjustable engine management systems, turbo chargers (with or without boost control), diesel engines?
What about tyres? Some of the fundamental problems in modern F1 are down to the "improved" tyre technology which makes the cars stick to the track but litters the non-racing line with marbles which can't be driven on.
Would you allow refueling and/or tyre stops?
One problem I see, as others have pointed out, is to "go back" requires so many things to be dis-invented which just isn't going to happen. And, as we have seen the last two seasons, designers will test every aspect of the rule book to gain even the smallest advantage. If it's not being done on the aero front these very clever people will simply start working in other areas.
- Modern safety cell construction techniques
- Ground effect and/or moveable wings for a lower drag coefficient
- Lower engine power, perhaps half of the current level
- Enclosed wheels
- Electronic drive aids such as active suspension. Would you also want power steering & ABS brakes?
On brakes, do you propose to get rid of carbon brakes and replace them with something less efficient?
Also, would you want CVT transmissions, continue to allow the current flappy paddle arrangement or go back to a gated gear shift lever?
Do you allow driver adjustable engine management systems, turbo chargers (with or without boost control), diesel engines?
What about tyres? Some of the fundamental problems in modern F1 are down to the "improved" tyre technology which makes the cars stick to the track but litters the non-racing line with marbles which can't be driven on.
Would you allow refueling and/or tyre stops?
One problem I see, as others have pointed out, is to "go back" requires so many things to be dis-invented which just isn't going to happen. And, as we have seen the last two seasons, designers will test every aspect of the rule book to gain even the smallest advantage. If it's not being done on the aero front these very clever people will simply start working in other areas.
DOF_power said:
The trouble was that the Lotus 80 didn't work and the type 88 wasn't given a chance to work (though I understand from what little I've been able to find out so far, that the car was a real handful and would have required a lot more development to make it competitive). Also, the Lotus 81, 87 and 92 all ran without wings at various stages of their racing lives.
The thing is that Christian Horner, in an interview with James Allen, suggested that the aerodynamics were not to the detriment of the overtaking but that is was the mechanical grip of the cars, and difficulties in taking any line other than the rubbered in racing line. Which is true I am not sure, but I think it is probably a combination of the two.
The only way this situation will be resolved I feel, is with a proper scientific investigation undertaken by the FIA, as oppose to knee jerk rules changes based on assumptions rather than data
The only way this situation will be resolved I feel, is with a proper scientific investigation undertaken by the FIA, as oppose to knee jerk rules changes based on assumptions rather than data
FB said:
Yep, but partially enclosed wheels.
Carbon-ceramic like on production supercars, not the current irrelevant carbon-carbon stuff.
Paddle shifters eCVT with 8 virtual gears.
Driver controlled, but power restricted.
Diesels, TSIs, ****els, all welcomed, preferably production based.
4 compounds fully available 1980s style. Anti marbling rules for tires (akin to safety rules).
Refueling allowed but not made manditory, it's up to the team and drivers.
Let's them work on other areas that are relevant and move away from expensive irrelevant ancient passive aero and passive suspensions.
cider_and_toast said:
The trouble was that the Lotus 80 didn't work and the type 88 wasn't given a chance to work (though I understand from what little I've been able to find out so far, that the car was a real handful and would have required a lot more development to make it competitive). Also, the Lotus 81, 87 and 92 all ran without wings at various stages of their racing lives.[/quote:1vghdlvr]
The Lotus 80 worked in that it produced the downforce. But it didn't have suspensions to contain it.
With active suspension plus a pop-up spoiler this would be fixed.
But I like the idea of twin chassis design.
Yeah, me too. It would have been great to see it in action and see if it would have worked. Sadly it was the right car but launched at the wrong time.
This thread is spectacular.
Muddytalker
Points Scorer
Again, an honest question for you DOF - Do you think your ideas are likely to happen?
The reason I ask is, for something to change to one's liking, there has to be an expectation and belief, or you change your desires accordingly.
For example - For my football team to become the best club side in the world, which I would love to happen, they would need to sign the best from Spain, Argentina, Brazil, Germany, etc. let's be honest, it's not going to happen, or at least not for a good few years, so to enjoy the upcoming season, I have to downscale my hope and expectations to something within range - A season where we win more often than not, putting a good unbeaten run together at some point, maybe getting into the top 3, whilst playing some attractive football. If we can sign a couple of good young players along the way, all the better. Then next year I can revise my hopes accordingly, depending on how the previous season went.
So to return to Grand Prix racing, I feel that first you need to accept where it is now (that doesn't mean like it, or think that it's the best), and develop from there. Widespread changes are not going to happen for 2011, but you can suggest where it should go given the current starting point and hope that the rulemakers and designers listen to public opinion (and don't assume that they don't take on board fan surveys, TV attendances, track attendances), and that the cars and tracks shift towards what you want. If you can't see it happening, then what is the point in then complaining that it's not what you want to see?
The reason I ask is, for something to change to one's liking, there has to be an expectation and belief, or you change your desires accordingly.
For example - For my football team to become the best club side in the world, which I would love to happen, they would need to sign the best from Spain, Argentina, Brazil, Germany, etc. let's be honest, it's not going to happen, or at least not for a good few years, so to enjoy the upcoming season, I have to downscale my hope and expectations to something within range - A season where we win more often than not, putting a good unbeaten run together at some point, maybe getting into the top 3, whilst playing some attractive football. If we can sign a couple of good young players along the way, all the better. Then next year I can revise my hopes accordingly, depending on how the previous season went.
So to return to Grand Prix racing, I feel that first you need to accept where it is now (that doesn't mean like it, or think that it's the best), and develop from there. Widespread changes are not going to happen for 2011, but you can suggest where it should go given the current starting point and hope that the rulemakers and designers listen to public opinion (and don't assume that they don't take on board fan surveys, TV attendances, track attendances), and that the cars and tracks shift towards what you want. If you can't see it happening, then what is the point in then complaining that it's not what you want to see?
"Anti-marbling" rules.
Marbles have been with us since motor racing began. They are the normal result of tyre wear. The only way I can see eliminating them is for all tyres to granite-hard.
Marbles have been with us since motor racing began. They are the normal result of tyre wear. The only way I can see eliminating them is for all tyres to granite-hard.
