Webber and Massa


Champion Elect
Right lets get away from the Vettel, Alonso, Button and Hamilton mumbo jumbo for now.

I want to focus on these two underachievers,

Completely dominated by his teammate Vettel last year and only won thanks to a problem with Vettels car. But on his day he can be as good as anyone and looks like a world beater. But last year he complained about the Pirelli tyres and was completely embrassed by his team-mate.

Same as Webber, Massa was completely hammered by Fernando Alonso last year and got into so many incidents with Lewis Hamilton that you'd need a crash ticket for it! I really think though that Massa's blushes were saved thanks to the fact that Webber an even worse season than him.

This two really did have bad years last year and really do need to show character in 2012 to save themselves from been given the axe at the end of the year.

However with teammates like Alonso and Vettel will they be able to improve on their 2011 performances or will the pair of them still have red faces come the end of 2012?
Webber might be as good as anyone on his day, it's just a shame that he has none of these days left in him. He'll be gone for 2013 to focus on his charity activities.

Massa will be crushed again this this season and move to a midefield team like Sauber or Lotus.
Thankfully for Webber, his performance did not allow another team to win the constructors, I feel that his performance last year was just about perfect if you were Christian Horner. Whether he will be replaced or not will depend on finding someone at a similar level to replace him. I think that one of the STR drivers will replace Mark at the end of next year, with Mark retiring from F1

Massa I think will struggle. Ferrari would not have been able to win the WCC with a performance like his last year, although to be fair, if the car was a little better, and allowed Alonso to win the WDC, Felipe may have performed better. I think that Felipe may end up in a similar situation to Barrichello, still feeling like he has something to offer, but with no one really taking him on. There are no end of candidates, and rumours of who will fill the Ferrari seat for 2013, I believe that Massa will also be leaving F1 at the end of next season, as he will find himself hamstrung in the same way that Rubens, Nick Heidfeld, and others have been.
I can see Webber in a Coulthard-style Red Bull PR role.

I honestly don't see why any midfield teams would have Massa at all, if he has no motivation at Ferrari, I can't imagine it'd be motivated in a team like Sauber, for example. Can see both retiring at the end of the season.
Well Webber might be closer next season as the off-throttle thing is reduced, in Silverstone he was faster than Vettel when it was for a one-off.

As for Massa, as a fan of his, I wouldn't really like to comment, but his situation is pretty dire. I feel sorry for the guy.

I don't believe his accident is the cause of his lose in form, more so Hockenheim 2010, as before that he was fine, and was matching Alonso.

I am not being biased here, but the team is right behind Alonso, and Massa, jjust like every other driver, needs at least equal team support. He could fight with Schumacher (in the second half of the season), with Raikkonen, and Alonso in the first half of 2010 regularly, why would that change?

As a fan of his, I am quite saddened by his fall. He might not have had the raw talent, but you could see him progress in every year since he joined Ferrari until 2009-2010.

I can't say the same for Webber, Webber only had one good season that I can recall, and that is 2010. I remember him qualifying the Jaguar well, but like Trulli he fell back in the race.

Massa should have left Ferrari after the 2010 season, think Webber is fine where he is at, near the end of his career and is not going to get a better deal than he already has.

I guess the same could be said for Massa.
I think that both may well have better years than 2011. I don't think that Ferrari arre all that unhappy with Massa, as you KNOW they don't want a driver that will challenge Alonso! Webber is more difficult to gauge. He may well be gone from RB after this year, especially if they lose the WCC due to lack of points from him! However, he is a decent back-up to Seb, and he did whine less last year, so I don't know if they will be too keen to replace him. I think that depends on the pace shown by the TR duo.
I don't think that Ferrari arre all that unhappy with Massa, as you KNOW they don't want a driver that will challenge Alonso!

Unfortunately, they don't want a driver that won't challenge Alonso because he's behind 3 or 4 other cars. He was more than 100 points behind Alonso again this year; they're not going to challenge for the WCC if Massa is as poor as he has been.
On [Webber's] day he can be as good as anyone and looks like a world beater
I think you're being pretty generous there, I've never thought Webber looked like a world-beater. The RB has been spectacular the last couple of years and the only reason, IMO of course, that he was anywhere close to Vettel in 2010 was due to Vettel's reliability issues. Webber binning it in the rain at Korea (I believe?) was an example of mistakes under pressure. Of course he could argue that his shoulder injury was an element too, but he kept that under-wraps until the end of the season. Bottom line, never particularly liked the guy and have never liked his over-aggressive defence, IMO brought about due to the fact that once someone's past him they'll pull away as they're quicker (although with the DRS farce not quite as true as it used to be).
Thanks for this thread Hammy as the other one is in meltdown going the way of one of those very poor bbc 606 efforts,, such a shame.

Anyway I think I've said before that Webber just didn't seem to get to grips (excuse the pun) with the tyres and his starts were quite frankly bloody awful, why is anyones guess.

I love Massa like Rubens he wears his heart on his sleeve which is not necessarily a good thing in F1 but best of all he has a boro lad as his chief engineer..
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