Reverse grids and racing innovations

The Artist.....

Champion Elect
I know that not everyone are fans of "gimmicks" like reverse grids; however, I really find it problematic that some teams seem to not even want to give it a try!


Mercedes (and their lapdogs, Racing Point) have effectively blocked a plan to trial a new format (in the duplicate GPs) where:
  • Saturday qualifying is a shortened race, where drivers start in reverse championship order
  • The qualifying for the race is determined by the position finished in the Saturday race.
I think that this sounds like a marvellous idea. The Saturday event would genuinely reward drivers who can overtake; it would mean some more mixed up grids (which almost always leads to exciting racing).

For the future of the sport, innovations need to be introduced to make sure that the viewing public want to watch. Then advertisers will be willing to pay more, TV companies will be willing to pay more, and sponsors will be willing to pay more!
 

F1Brits_90

Champion Elect
I found out that I mention this when I rumoured all the way back In October. about who would win in reverse grid race

as permanent fixture I fully agree because it could affect championship, but as 1 off at circuit where there isn't much feeder series action have a sprint race instead of FP3 id be intrigued we talked about it on here i think before liberty. who would win in reverse grid how far would williams drop, how far up would lewis get. would a top 3 team win or would it be a mclaren or Renault

im for it as a 1 off because we don't want them to flog a dead horse like elimation qualifying when they kept that going for longer than they should have. if It works go for it but not permentaly because it would be a shame to get rid of the qualifying we have know at tracks like Monaco, Silverstone, Monza, Suzuka
 

The Artist.....

Champion Elect
And given that the second Austrian race is the "Grand Prix of Steinbergen" (I Think - or something like that) and the second Silverstone race is the "70th Anniversary" race, maybe they could do somethign special there?

(Oh no, of course they can't - because that might mean that Mercedes can't dominate yet another race...)
 

F1Brits_90

Champion Elect
if they end of last season proved anything Mercedes won races last season because of Ferrari incompentence than their outright speed & looked to outsider better than they are. I still state you swap the staff from Mercedes to Ferrari so vettel is driving the Mercedes & Hamilton is driving the Ferrari. Hamilton wins the last 3 world titles for Ferrari. because I highly doubt that if Mercedes qualify 1-2 I highly doubt we would ever get to a point where Ferrari would finish 1-2
 

cider_and_toast

Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex
Staff Member
Premium Contributor
Since this season extremely unlikely to be run in line with previous seasons and indeed seasons to follow then in my opinion, all bets should be off and why the hell not give different things a go.

Try different formats and ideas, use this as a perfect opportunity to get a free trial so we never, ever end up with something as shite as Bernie's last man standing qualifying again.

Why not have a sprint race or a reverse grid?

The sport has now gone way beyond the point at which it is a simple case of men going down to the track in their teams cars to prove who's the quickest.

As always though, self interest blinds the sport to future potential.

Can anyone else think of a sport where the players have as much say in the rules of the game as F1 does or where, by enabling players to invent their own rules it has more beneficial?
 

Galahad

Not a Moderator
Valued Member
I'd like to see this too, but I completely understand why Mercedes don't. They're not spending squillions of euros to finish 19th at the Monaco Grand Prix, thank you very much.

Given the proposal is for Silverstone and Austria, though, I can imagine the usual 3 teams cruising to the front of the Saturday race with little difficulty, maybe in as few as 6 laps? Either that or an almighty accident at the first corner.
 

F1Brits_90

Champion Elect
this would never be at Monaco of course. but this wont be permanent. but as 1 off whats the harm. but i agree with ted Kravitz it would have to be non championship race. which could be good for Saturday have reverse non championship race in (for eg) Belgium instead of FP3 then qualifying for Sunday race
 

FB

Not my cup of cake
Valued Member
I had to be a Neddy no, no but why would the teams waste their time, money, resources and drivers on a non-Championship race with all the risk involved.

I still have a personal preference that that qualifying should be one hour, all teams running. All drivers must do 10 or 20 laps during the hour and the grid position is based on the average of the fastest 5 laps achieved by each driver over the session.
 

cider_and_toast

Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex
Staff Member
Premium Contributor
Most of the proposals put forward in the past have failed at the "but will the plebs be able to follow what's going on?" stage.

The only reason it changed in the first place was due to TV and sponsorship coverage.

No one watched the Friday qualification and cars didn't get enough screen time on the Saturday hour.

The big question this season is how many races they get in to make it seem like a legitimate championship?
 

FB

Not my cup of cake
Valued Member
Can we, as an alternative, refer to it as the illegitimate champioship? Imagine the nonsense if Hammy wins it to match Schumie and then again next year to be an 8 times Champion.

"Well, of course, his Championship in 2020 was illegitimate" the sage commentators on all things Lewis will be able to say.
 

F1Brits_90

Champion Elect
Can we, as an alternative, refer to it as the illegitimate champioship? Imagine the nonsense if Hammy wins it to match Schumie and then again next year to be an 8 times Champion.

"Well, of course, his Championship in 2020 was illegitimate" the sage commentators on all things Lewis will be able to say.


wasnt i talking about this a few months ago about how who ever win this title will always have a asterisk by it few months ago LOL

in a way i hope who ever wins this title this year is or in future will become a multiple world champion. because I would feel for any driver who wins covid title. because a bit like if irvine won in 99. it will always be "but...." no driver deserves that
 
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RasputinLives

Leave me alone I'm on Smoko
Contributor
I'll be honest I don't think there is a single championship that has been won where somebody doesn't raise that "but" - is the nature of the game.

I can't say I'm overly enthusiastic for F1's return right now as I was kind of hoping the sport would have a bit of space to reflect on itself and how it actual relates to the real world - especially after the ridiculous situation in Australia. Still the wheels need to keep turning or some people might not be able afford that new yacht this year.
 

cider_and_toast

Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex
Staff Member
Premium Contributor
I just wish that they would introduce racing into motor sport.

There was a rumour this was discussed before the start of last season but a couple of teams voted it down.

The FIA proposed that 5 teams would be given extra racing for a variety of arbitrary reasons. The remaining teams could be represented by one team racing on behalf of the others. The oldest team would have an additional veto in racing if it felt it couldn't race effectively that day. Any remaining racing would be issued on a siding scale from 1st to last unless there were more than 10 teams the team that finished 11th wouldn't get any racing the following season.

All of this, of course, was for the benefit of the fans.

It didn't go through becuaee no one could quite agree what level of racing would be acceptable.
 

Il_leone

Champion Elect
I hear Red Bull making loud noises about reverse grid when you consider they threatened to pull out because they were getting stuffed by the Merc power trains unless the rules were changed to suit them so they could thrash everyone :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:


I remember Red Bull specifically wanting harder and durable pirellis in 2013 because they could not thrash everyone

The gimmick of reverse grids would be against the essence of F1 which is to show engineering excellence and advanced technology with the fastest drivers.

Tell Adrian Newey that the cars he designed would have to start at the back of the grid each race if he wins _ I'd very much doubt he would endorse reverse grids either
 

cider_and_toast

Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex
Staff Member
Premium Contributor
I used to think that reverse grids and all that would go against the essence of F1 but I'm passed all that now. That essence died a long time ago when every single development in engineering over the last 20 years was ruled illegal within 12 months of its appearance.

Adrian Newey will design cars around which ever set of rules he's given to work with. If he's told of reverse grids then you can almost guarantee that he will start to design cars that work a lot better in dirty air because that would be a new technical requirement.

The problem in F1 for far too long is that due to the triumvirate of FIA, Commercial Rights holder and Teams, the tail has been wagging the dog.

The FIA should set the rules. End of.

The commercial rights holder goes out and sells the sport.

The teams build cars and race.

The teams and commercial rights holders should have no say in the rules of the sport.

1) Build a car that meets the regulations
2) Bung in an engine that meets the regulations.
3) Here's your fuel and tyres
4) Stick in a qualified driver
5) Go to an approved track

Race.
 

Il_leone

Champion Elect
Well the essence of F1 and what you said lays the finger at one person for setting up F1 as it is today ... Bernie Ecclestone

In regards to Newey - he is just a lot smarter than other engineers in reading what the rules says and what the rules don't say
 
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