Well at least I don't think that people think their chosen driver is perfect, which is the premise of this thread, and insult them by saying they should get a perspective....
Nobody is perfect
- Thread starter mnmracer
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mnmracer
Points Scorer
How can people that you believe don't exist be insulted?
Both on forums and in the media, besides the obvious (Luca diM, Helmut M), there have been claims that these drivers have been 'flawless' and 'always extracted 100%' out of the car.
People will always argue incidents. Technically, Hamilton could have braked for Grosjean (like Alonso expected Kimi to do). Technically, Vettel could have left Karthikeyan more than the measured fact of "car width + 5ft". I just note that while technically avoidable, it is unreal to expect that of a driver. A F1 driver should be able to look in his mirrors, and a F1 driver should be able to keep his car going straight with 5 ft of space.
Both on forums and in the media, besides the obvious (Luca diM, Helmut M), there have been claims that these drivers have been 'flawless' and 'always extracted 100%' out of the car.
People will always argue incidents. Technically, Hamilton could have braked for Grosjean (like Alonso expected Kimi to do). Technically, Vettel could have left Karthikeyan more than the measured fact of "car width + 5ft". I just note that while technically avoidable, it is unreal to expect that of a driver. A F1 driver should be able to look in his mirrors, and a F1 driver should be able to keep his car going straight with 5 ft of space.
Space is a diminishing thing when you have converging trajectories mnmracer, and as we saw 5ft became -0.5ft in only a fraction of a second. Vettel's trajectory was an extremely odd one and was, in my opinion, a deliberate elbows-out pass to deliberately make a point to Karthikayan. Much like shoving past someone in a hallway. Occassionally you clip your shoulder and end up being the one who gets spun. at that point you can look very silly.
Beside my opinion, which differs to yours, try to give everyone here some leeway. Discussion is a lot more interesting when you have an open mindedness to being wrong some of the time. There are a lot of well informed people on here with opinions and interpretations of events which differ to yours and which are equally and sometimes more-so valid. Don't think I am digging at you, but if you root yourself to your convictions and close your mind to all other interpretations of events and facts then it makes it quite difficult for anyone to have a discussion or debate with you. You have got a lot to say that is worth saying but people will stop listening to you unless you start listening to them.
I mean this with the kindest respect.
Beside my opinion, which differs to yours, try to give everyone here some leeway. Discussion is a lot more interesting when you have an open mindedness to being wrong some of the time. There are a lot of well informed people on here with opinions and interpretations of events which differ to yours and which are equally and sometimes more-so valid. Don't think I am digging at you, but if you root yourself to your convictions and close your mind to all other interpretations of events and facts then it makes it quite difficult for anyone to have a discussion or debate with you. You have got a lot to say that is worth saying but people will stop listening to you unless you start listening to them.
I mean this with the kindest respect.
mnmracer - Cucumber-gate was an interesting debate, but it is not clear-cut. Personally, I think for these purposes it makes sense for you to give the drivers you are profiling the benefit of the doubt as you have done, simply because this analysis doesn't require a blow by blow reconstruction of each incident.
mnmracer
Points Scorer
I just think too often 'for the good of being open-minded', measurable facts are ignored. A little too PC for me. The measurable fact was that Vettel's trajectory -which the onboards show was parallel to the track edge, left 5 foot space at all time.
You can be of opinion that 5 foot was not enough, just as you can be of opinion that Hamilton should have let Maldonado past, or that Hamilton should have braked for Grosjean, but let's at least respect the facts. That is my only beef.
You can be of opinion that 5 foot was not enough, just as you can be of opinion that Hamilton should have let Maldonado past, or that Hamilton should have braked for Grosjean, but let's at least respect the facts. That is my only beef.
Those are photos. F1 cars are usually in motion when on a race-track and it is the videos that tell the story. Excuse my flippancy. You are opening a can of worms here and the only people you are likely to convince are those that already agree with you. Like I said, this has been done to death. It has it's own thread which you can go and have a swim around in and you will find that all of your arguments have already been made with equally weighty counter arguments. You are flogging a dead horse. I know you like everything to be black and white and fit into to nice little boxes but some things don't and this is one of them.
At the very best I could just about swallow 50-50 but there is no way on earth I will accept that Vettel was blameless in that incident or even that Karthikayan was reckless.
You are destroying your own thread. Looks a lot like cutting one's nose off to spite one's face.
At the very best I could just about swallow 50-50 but there is no way on earth I will accept that Vettel was blameless in that incident or even that Karthikayan was reckless.
You are destroying your own thread. Looks a lot like cutting one's nose off to spite one's face.
Your photo is a ridiculous exaggeration and extremely disingenuous, too. Not only is the bottom one after the incident but your arrow points from the inside of the front wheel to a point about 10 meters further back down the circuit. Just look at the perspective. Come on, we are not fools.
mnmracer
Points Scorer
You are showing exactly why I made the annotations on victim cases. Thank you.
Your complete dismissal, here and in the other thread, of anyhing substantial (like, you know, footage), and the only rebuttals being variations of "nah uh" says enough about your 'just about to swallow' open mindedness
Like I said, there's plenty to be discussed, at least respect simple measurable facts.
Your complete dismissal, here and in the other thread, of anyhing substantial (like, you know, footage), and the only rebuttals being variations of "nah uh" says enough about your 'just about to swallow' open mindedness
Like I said, there's plenty to be discussed, at least respect simple measurable facts.
Please stop this argument. Please.
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