Formula One can live without Ferrari


Staff Member
Well this is a complete turnaround from what Bernie and Max were saying last year.
I seem to recall them saying that Ferrari were vital to the future of F1.
How quickly things change, eh?

It seems Ferrari no longer had the influence they have long enjoyed over Bernie/Max/FIA.
No doubt there is some manouevring and posturing going on but it's still fairly unprecedented for Max to dismiss Ferrari so readily.

Formula One could live without Ferrari if they were to walk away in protest at the introduction of a budget cap, according to International Automobile Federation (FIA) president Max Mosley.
In an interview published in Saturday's Financial Times, Mosley said that he was locked in a power struggle that he intended to win.
He made clear that he would not be backing down over allowing teams to compete with a voluntary 40 million pound ($59.56 million) cap in 2010 in exchange for greater technical freedom than others remaining with unrestricted budgets.
More here: Formula One can live without Ferrari, says Mosley
Well Well, finally proof that FIA doesnt stand for 'Ferrari In Advance'?

One for certain F1 cannot live without Ferrari.
The Loss of Ferrari would mean the loss of a huge F1 team who no-one is going to buy in this current climate, Lets face Brawn is only here because Honda thought 'Oh :censored:, Redundcy cost are going to be absloutley massive and theres no-one to buy the team' and found it would be cheaper to initate a management buyout. and Ferrari's exit would mean the loss of an engine supplier too, that would be costly, Im sure that not everyone would want a cosworth in 2010 onwards, because they would want something go and gain avantage from which is not possible from running the same engines as everyone else.

Oh dear Max, you would of been commened at any other time for saying this but right just gone and stuck your foot in it again.
I disagree AMR. I think the loss of Ferrari or ANY team could be absorbed by F1.

Lets be honest Ferrari haven't really supplied much of the action this year. Most of this has come from Braun/Red Bull.....etc.
I think if any of the big teams go, there'll still be an F1, it will just not be the same as we know it now.
Go back to 1981, and ask the question, can F1 survive without Lotus? Or can F1 survive without Brabham?

Has done!

Not left to form a super-championship at the same time though have they?
F1 isn't all about Ferrari, BUT they are a HUGE part of the sport. They are an institution, an Italian masterpiece. They are a rich, beautiful part of the sport.
At this point last year I would of said that F1 can live without Ferrari. But right now F1 cannot live without any team. F1 may be strong but it still weak and the loss of any team will be a huge hit, At this point there are still questions over Toytoa who are maeing losses, Brawn who need money hopefully from virgin and at this there long term furture is still questionable, It is my understanding that Torro Rosso are still for sale and under rules that they can't run RBR chassis they could go because its not ecomiclly viable to produce two differnt cars. Then theres the Williams who moneywise are still just survivng, and the strange rumors about Mercades/Mclaren which is hard to know how much weight to add to that. that leaves very few teams or engine constructors
F1 must enter self-preservation mode and do its upmost to keep ALL teams in F1 and encourage new teams to enter. That incldes trying to keep Ferrari, at this point F1 doesn't need the bad press that Ferrari would bring if they left. The history of them to massive at the moment for F1 to risk throwing away and they are still considered a top team even tho they are doing badly at the moment.
At this point in time F1 needs to be seen to bring all the teams together again rifts like this doesn't help the image of the sport which is going to be crucial to the survival of the sport. F1 cannot scare away potential sponsers or lose current ones because they are worrying about the future of the sport. So Max so brazenly trying to get up Ferrari's nose is not what is needed. Disscussions about rules and reprocussions of them like Teams leaving should be done behind closed doors.

The upside to this is that any threat from Ferrari to leave is massively questionable. Ferrari is bulit upon F1, remember they were an f1/sportscar racing team first and the sale of exotic cars was to fund Enzo's racing ambtions. Even now the soul of F1 runs through Ferrari if only only the road car side F1 is still the main source of advertising and leaving F1 would hit sales, in a difficult time, massively It would do no end of harm to Ferrari. F1 may in any other time be able to live without Ferrari, but Ferrari cannot live without F1.

So to sum up and clear up any confusion.
F1 cannot to afford to lose Ferrari......It cannot afford to lose anyone.
i think there are 3 discussions going on at the same time here.

the first is, can F1 survive without ferrari or any team? that question as been effectively answered with the demise of lotus. one of the most ground breaking teams ever. also, we saw all kinds of other things come and go, tyre companies, fuel companies, engine suppliers. you name it. all came and went. so yes, F1 cqn cope with the loss of a team.

the second one is, can F1 survive without ferrari now? amr answered that quite well in his comment. right now we need all the teams we can find so losing a team, any team, would be quite a disaster at the moment. so from that point of view all this hee-haw seems just smoke and mirrors to me. everyone knows the situation and what can and cannot be done.

the third one, an underlying one and maybe the most interesting one, is can a team become so huge that it actually becomes an integral part of F1 and therefor bigger and stronger then F1 itself? i think ferrari is a special case. they have been in F1 longer then any other team and a lot of people around the world see ferrari as the F1 team. nothing to do with being a fan or not, just an observation. this leads to an interesting situation where this one team has the potential to have a greater power then other teams. the brand ferrari has a commercial value, as does the brand f1. but ferrari and F1 together are more then the sum of both brands. but this goes both ways, just like F1 is stuck to ferrari, so is ferrari stuck to F1. ferrari without F1 is actually weaker then F1 without ferrari. simply from a money poit of view. there is simply no way a company like ferrari has another option to build the same kind of image worldwide then it has done and continues to do with F1.

so, any team can leave F1 and F1 will go on as was proven in the past many times. but right now its not a good time to lose any team. the grid is already under prssure and the sport needs cars to have racing. and finally, ferrari holds a special status, so F1 cannot afford to lose ferrari. but on the other hand, ferrari cannot afford to lose F1 either. actually, one can even say, ferrari needs f1 more then the other way around.
Bernie gets involved...

Formula 1 supremo Bernie Ecclestone says he will protect Ferrari's position in the team's row with FIA president Max Mosley over the introduction of budget caps.

Speaking to The Times newspaper, Ecclestone said he won't let Mosley "destroy" Ferrari.
"I won't let it happen," Ecclestone told the newspaper.

Article here: Ecclestone says he will protect Ferrari
I think what we are seeing here is the difference between Bernie protecting his commercial interests (which he feels he needs Ferrari to add value to) and Max acting in what he feels are the best interests of the sport. Seems to me that it comes down to Bernie having a conflict of interest and not seeing that it doesn't matter if Ferrari are on board, because there might not be enough teams remaining to run a viable grid!
What I'm saying is if Moseley & Ecclestone aren't too careful about messing the teams about then Ferrari & the whole lot will start a new racing series away from a shadow F1. FOCA essentially did it, and Ecclestone needs to remember his own history...

we know see clearly max going for the sport, see my option 1, and bernie going for the commercial aspect, see my option 2. this is an interesting situation cos now it shows once again that commerce in F1 has become as important as the sportive aspect. but still these two are condemned to eachother.

a breakaway series is no option, where would they race? most if not all circuits are FIA accredited and losing this means no more official FIA races. starting a breakaway series would must certainly not being held under the FIA flag and that could mean the end of the FIA accreditation of any circuit where a race of this breakaway serie is held. but at the same time, F1 with fewer teams is not an option either. the core of motor sport is racing, for this one needs competitors.

so a completele clash and mish mash of interests. but with F1 in the middle as a common interest.
bogaTYR said:
a breakaway series is no option, where would they race? most if not all circuits are FIA accredited and losing this means no more official FIA races. starting a breakaway series would must certainly not being held under the FIA flag and that could mean the end of the FIA accreditation of any circuit where a race of this breakaway serie is held. but at the same time, F1 with fewer teams is not an option either. the core of motor sport is racing, for this one needs competitors.

If you've got F1, do you necessarily need the accreditation for anything else? I'm not sure the FIA would be completely against trying to rid themselves of the last non-qualifier in the 1958 Monaco GP!
without a FIA 'circuit license' a circuit cannot hold any event on the FIA calender. F1 is just another of those events. if there would be a breakaway serie, then chances are any circuit this serie would use, will lose its FIA accreditation and as a result can no longer hold any event on the FIA calender. why would FIA allow a breakaway serie to use 'its circuits' ? and most if not all car races are on the FIA calender. ... .09%20.pdf
I'm not arguing, but I still think there would be 10+ circuits willing to take the plunge, especially if the breakaway series took a few feeder events with it. For example, the Circuit de Monaco is used for little other than F1, as was the Circuit Gilles Villeneuve. If Red Bull were in the series they could secure the A1-Ring with a little development and I think Bahrain, Abu Dhabi & Singapore will go where there is most exposure. There may also be track owners trying to get the jump on a rival by staging BF1, for example Suzuka and Fuji or Brands Hatch and Silverstone...

You never know who will breakaway, I bet in 1520 there were few who expected Martin Luther's breakaway Church to catch on...
You've also got to remember that if there is a breakaway, the circuits would get the races for a bargain price, thereby saving them a fortune to host the races currently run by that horrible little goblin..
You also have to remember that the circuits that chose to break away would almost certainly not be able to hold any FIA certified events, so they could be choosing F1 over the other events they run. Not sure the big circuits would want to do that, although those that have previously lost their F1 races might.
Like I say, it depends on how much income/prestige the circuit has when not counting F1, but as I've said, there are several circuits which are used for little else eg. Montreal, Monaco! And the question also occurs can you fund a circuit on F1 and maybe a few back-up series that the breakaway series are bound to have. I think some circuit owners would be willing to be where F1 is rather than where F1 is not!

In short, it is possible and if Ferrari are to believed in press releases today, sooner than you think!
Mosley has said before that the FIA would be happy to certify a new series in the normal way, providing that the basic requirements are met in terms of safety and so on. After all, F1 is far from the only series that the FIA acts as regulator for.

So in that sense it may need only be a break-away from FOM and Bernie, and current F1 circuits could host both, in theory - and finances permitting.
A1GP is one example of how things might go.

as far as i remember, and please correct me if i am wrong, the series was set up as an alternative to F1. after the FIA agreed with the concept and its match with their safety procedures, the next thing was to set up a management structure to handel the business point of view.

if this is a good example, then a breakaway f1 would basically be the same as F1 is now bar bernie. but there will still be people doing the job bernie does, so whats the point? i still don't see how a breakaway series could ever survice. ok, i understand a new series is possible within the FIA framework, but is anything possible without the FIA?

TBY makes a point that circuits will allow a breakaway series to race. but i have serious doubts about that. how can any breakaway series set up races like F1? its not just to plan a race and to hire a circuit, its a whole chain of financials, TV rights etc etc. and not just once, but say 18 times per year. has this ever been done? outside of FIA i mean.
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