Grand Prix 2022 Dutch Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

When F1 announced it was going back to Zandvoort I was quite excited. I had good memories of the races in the 1980's, Alan Jones breaking a skirt whilst running away from the field in 1980, Didier Pironi looking like he would become World Champion with a win in 1982, which sadly he never achieved, Niki Lauda's last win in 1985.

I will admit to having watched the race last year on my phone, so it is difficult to be completely objective, but I do recall being totally underwhelmed by the whole event. Max and Red Bull were unbeatable, something very likely to be repeated this weekend. The track has been hacked about and they have included some parts, it appears to me anyway, because they can, rather than because they actually improve the racing or the spectacle.

It's strange that I don't find the passion of the Dutch fans as endearing as the passion of Italian fans. I suppose the Italian love of motor sport is long held and focused on a famous car brand, regardless of the drivers. The Dutch obsession is more recent, and focused on one, from my perspective anyway, less than likable individual, which can spill over in to jingoism and a poor attitude to anyone who might challenge their hero.

Sport is tribal, it is part of the reason why we enjoy it, to be part of a "gang". However, when it spills over in to negativity it is never pretty.

Let's hope this weekend we have a race of some sort, although I don't hold out great hopes. At the very least I hope that the fans behave themselves and as Max romps from a lights to flag victory they can avoid being too partisan towards the other drivers.

Here's the schedule for the cover age on Sky:

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Enjoy.
 
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Dartman

Pole Sitter
It's all very well calling for smaller cars but an overpowered go cart is not the way to go, the F1 car has evolved from various rule changes many of them to slow the cars down as they outgrow circuits, but engineering has always found a way round the restrictions within the rules. Whether a safe car without aero can be built to compete at a reasonable speed and still produce a spectator sport is moot, certainly a 1500cc car without aero can be built but with today's technology it will be of a similar performance to the non aero 3 litre cars of the late 60's, that racing was pretty exciting and it shows driver skills, we don't have to return to manual boxes and best batteries should be left at home.
 

cider_and_toast

Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex
Staff Member
Premium Contributor
Fully agree with GeoffP on car recovery zones. Now that at a minimum a virtual safety car is called to aid the recovery of a stationary vehicle tracks need to be improved to speed the process up. In the wake of the death of Jules Bianchi I completely understand why safety and virtual safety cars were introduced when there are recovery machines on track but now it would appear that it is done at all times regardless of car location.

Where Tsunoda came to a halt he only needed to be dragged backwards through the big gap in the barrier. The risk to track workers was tiny.
 

F1Brits_90

Champion Elect
in addition the sooner they notice we are having more incidents due to the time pressure on changing wheels than we ever had from refuelling the safer the sport will get.

Smaller cars, more focus on mechanical grip and refuelling. Aero is a brilliant idea, I fell for the advantages too, but now we can see that it will help speed, but impede racing. Ground effect resolves this to a degree, but magnifies the crash risk…. As do pay drivers, but there’s another one
refuelling wont come back. because we want to see battles on the track & not the pitlane

i like smaller cars, Karun chandhok had the good idea that with sustainable fuels. to ditch the batteries. & get the cars much lighter.

ground effect i believe Is the way forward, because we need to limit how much dirty air are hitting as thats the enemy & pay drivers are bane of F1. i think on 26 car grid there is a place for them. but on 20 car grid there has been too much reliance on size of someones wallet & not talent. but hopefully the budget cap will change this
 

vintly

Mostly bacon
Contributor
The idea that a team who are a shoe-in for the WDC and WCC would jeopardise that by employing numerous other personnel to cheat - when any evidence to support that would immediately disqualify them for the year if not more - is frankly ridiculous.
 

vintly

Mostly bacon
Contributor
Great couple of days at the track. Right opposite the Ferrari and RB pits, halfway up the grandstand. Dutch were brilliant, super helpful, generous. Drinks and food were decent quality, transport to and from well organised. The flare pic was on the cool down lap, and had cleared by the time the cars entered parc ferme. Not sure if pay that much again for a pit straight ticket, but glad to have had all the grid and put action to keep us amused. Dutch certainly know how to have fun.
 

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Il_leone

World Champion

Make what you will but Jos does seem to love to blow his own trumpet. The man seems to become more despicable as the season goes on. Just imagine if he was succesful back then...
 

Dartman

Pole Sitter
The problem with Jos is that he is trying to live his failed career through his son, don't remember Keke Rosberg heavily into the limelight with Nico, but there again Keke was a WDC unlike Jos.
 

GeoffP

Wake me when we’re there
Contributor
refuelling wont come back. because we want to see battles on the track & not the pitlane

i like smaller cars, Karun chandhok had the good idea that with sustainable fuels. to ditch the batteries. & get the cars much lighter.

ground effect i believe Is the way forward, because we need to limit how much dirty air are hitting as thats the enemy & pay drivers are bane of F1. i think on 26 car grid there is a place for them. but on 20 car grid there has been too much reliance on size of someones wallet & not talent. but hopefully the budget cap will change this
On the refuelling, battles come about due to varying strategies. Other than exceptional influence a faster car will stay in front of a slower car, so you need something that will juggle the cars.

Fuelling has been declared dangerous, rushed tyre stops proven dangerous - I guess that’s why Bernie wanted random track wetting
 

Il_leone

World Champion
The problem with Jos is that he is trying to live his failed career through his son, don't remember Keke Rosberg heavily into the limelight with Nico, but there again Keke was a WDC unlike Jos.
Totally agree the guy has become an even bigger tosser since Abu Dhabi
 

F1Brits_90

Champion Elect
Have there always been a hidden bunch of soccerball yobs that seem to have zero idea about the sport and have only come out since Twatter? Or is this a new breed thanks to (delete as appropriate) Liberty/Netflix/Red Bull?

Look at these utterly moronic comments or GRs post.
maybe there some nutters out there, but then dont forget the death threats Timo glock got in 2008. so maybe its always been there
 

F1Brits_90

Champion Elect
Having failed to stop on lap 56, Mercedes threw away any chance of the race win


also thinking about it yesterday. i think verstappen wins regardless on sunday as Red bull are too clever stategy wise. we arent talking about ferrari

both Mercedes stay out
1) Verstappen
2) Leclerc
3) Hamilton
4) Russell

Both Mercedes pits
1) Verstappen
2) Hamilton
3) Russell
4) Leclerc

the only way he wins which would never happen. Both Mercedes pit & Verstappen stays out
1) Hamilton
2) Verstappen
3) Russell
4) Leclerc
 

Wombat

Learner
From comments on the various F1 websites I can see that the haters are just hating and many of the others don’t seem to be applying their F1 knowledge. Lewis had every right to be extremely upset with how that race ended for him. Through no fault of his own and circumstances that had nothing to do with actual on-track racing (i.e., the frustrating, race altering safety car periods and an absurdly unrealistic strategy call by his team), Lewis went from being a front runner with a decent chance for the win (or a sure 2nd at worst) to being placed in a situation of having a significant tire disadvantage that guaranteed he wouldn’t even be able to finish on the podium—a manufactured situation that again found him heading Max behind the safety car with a severe, insurmountable tire disadvantage that undoubtedly dredged up strong feelings of déjà vu from Abu Dhabi.

Merc’s decision to eschew a more realistic race strategy and instead risk going all-out for the win despite being only the third quickest car was quite bold. They opted for a risky one stop strategy and with superb driving by Lewis, they looked to have a realistic possibility of winning. However, through no merit by their competitors, this possibility was demolished by the safety car periods. The one stop strategy was Merc’s only realistic chance of winning. With this having been soundly subverted by the safety car periods, obtaining a win under the revised situation was pure fantasy and Merc should have modified its strategy for this new reality. A win was no longer a reality but ultimately passing Ferrari for 2nd in the constructors championship is. They should then have returned to reality, with their most positive potential result now being to maximize their points over Ferrari. Instead, they chose (for Lewis only) to stubbornly and stupidly cling to their “all-out risk for a win” mentality despite that win now being an obvious impossibility. The only way their strategy of remaining out on mediums in order to maintain track position while every other front runner behind them pitted for softs could have worked was if there was only one or perhaps two laps remaining. Then, with no passing allowed until crossing the start line on a restart, GR could have held up Max while Lewis gassed it early and hopefully obtained a big enough gap on the restart to be able to hold off Max for that one or two laps. However, with more than 10 laps remaining there was no way that, on his mediums, he would be able to hold off the soft shod RB of Max (not only was the RB the faster car, including in straight line speed which is critical for overtaking, but it now also had the addition of a significant tire advantage). And Lewis no longer even had GR as a buffer (not that it would have mattered anyway) since Merc split their strategy by pitting him for softs. Under the circumstances, since Max and CL on their softs would have passed both medium shod Mercs anyway, Merc should have yielded the lead and pitted both Lewis and GR for softs since at that point they could have then finished 2nd and 3rd (or perhaps 4th if GR lost a place to CL on a double-stacked stop), which realistically was the best they could have done after the safety car period. By stupidly leaving Lewis out on mediums with so many laps remaining he was just a sitting duck for the soft shod cars of Max and CL behind him as well as his teammate GR, who he had dominated during the race but had now been given a significant tire advantage over Lewis by his own team! It was actually a bit surprising that Lewis was able to hold onto 4th ahead of the soft shod cars of Sainz and Checo. By not pitting Lewis along with GR for softs and probably finishing 2nd and 3rd, Merc got 6 pts. fewer over Ferrari than if they had done so.
 

F1Brits_90

Champion Elect
Wombat it was some good points on there i dont think we can disagree as the both safety car periods were needed, if VSC took longer than needed because appartantly its harder to move because run off areas are part grass part sand & lap late on bottas when he was stuck on pitwall of the 1st corner.

I wouldve pitted both dont forget that mercedes didnt pit russell, russell made the decision for them , as i mentioned above the only way he wouldve won was if he pitted & max didnt so it was unrealistic. but it was interesting hearing 1 of the pundits who said about the staying out in that he is a 7 time world champion, with 103 wins. would another 2nd or 3rd mean much, he isnt in the championship fight. it probally was :censored: or bust.

GR could have held up Max while Lewis gassed it early and hopefully obtained a big enough gap on the restart to be able to hold off Max

i feel that wouldve been if not illegal, highly unethical & wouldve been penalised on safety grounds. because Hamilton is defacto the safety car. when he goes you have to go
 

Dartman

Pole Sitter
GR had no hope of holding MV he would have got him on the straight similar to what he did to Hamilton and would have passed LH next time round.
What I'm not sure about was LH more p**sed off about GR passing him or not winning or not being on the podium and GR was.
 

Wombat

Learner
i dont think we can disagree as the both safety car periods were needed, if VSC took longer than needed because appartantly its harder to move because run off areas are part grass part sand & lap late on bottas when he was stuck on pitwall of the 1st corner.

I wouldve pitted both dont forget that mercedes didnt pit russell, russell made the decision for them
You are, of course, correct that given the circumstances both safety car periods were needed. However, I never questioned the necessity of those safety car periods. The point I made re. the safety car periods is simply that they destroyed Merc’s one stop strategy (because they needed the race to stay green in order to obtain the desired benefit from it), which as you know, is a fact and not an opinion. Personally, I hate safety car periods because they compromise and alter the true sporting outcome of a race, as they did here (recall that F1 didn’t begin using the safety car until 1993). I have ideas about how this matter can be safely remedied but that’s a topic for another post.

We both agree that Merc should have pitted both cars for softs and I noted the logical and realistic reasons why they should have. Criticisms directed at Lewis re. this matter are unfair as this was the team’s call and Lewis is contracted to follow their decisions. He certainly has in the past questioned calls by the team and suggested different strategies to them, but in the end they have stood fast on what they wanted to do and Lewis has then just trusted them and complied. He has acknowledged in the past that he realizes that the pit team has more complete info. than he does on track so (even if he disagrees with the team) he trusts that their call is correct and complies (yes, he has complained when a call proved to be wrong but he still complied with their call as contracted to do). Such was the case here as Merc stupidly stuck to their fantasy of “going for it all” and refusing to pit Lewis from the lead when even casual F1 fans knew that the significant tire disadvantage guaranteed that Lewis would be passed by some of the soft shod cars. I think too much is being made about GR asking for softs (especially in using this to criticize Lewis). In the past, Merc drivers have asked for a change to a different tire (including Lewis) and been refused by the team if they didn’t want to do it. The fact that they agreed to do it this time tells me that at that point they pretty much realized that staying out on mediums was a desperation shot and decided to split their strategy; that they left Lewis out because he was leading and was the quicker driver and thus was the best choice for attempting their ridiculous, desperation shot at the win. Basically, GR made the suggestion but the team made the call to go ahead with the tire change, probably for the points noted above. If the team didn't agree it was worthwhile they would have ordered GR to stay out.
 

Wombat

Learner
it was interesting hearing 1 of the pundits who said about the staying out in that he is a 7 time world champion, with 103 wins. would another 2nd or 3rd mean much, he isnt in the championship fight. it probally was :censored: or bust.

GR could have held up Max while Lewis gassed it early and hopefully obtained a big enough gap on the restart to be able to hold off Max

i feel that wouldve been if not illegal, highly unethical & wouldve been penalised on safety grounds. because Hamilton is defacto the safety car. when he goes you have to go
Yes, I’ve also heard those “win or bust” comments re. Lewis. I don’t agree with them and his feelings and heated comments re. the situation indicate that, unlike the team manager, he wasn’t in a win or bust mindset at that point; that he would have preferred giving up the lead for softs so that he could at least fight rather than helplessly watching cars whiz by him while on mediums and not even making it onto the podium (he even asked over the radio about why was he the only one who wasn’t on softs).

I think that you’ve misunderstood my comment here. I just assumed it would be understood that it was inferred in my comment that I meant that GR do so legally. And he certainly could have. What I envisioned was, while going through the final corner, GR simply letting Lewis get on the gas first (as would be his right anyway as the lead car) and then following Lewis through at a legally slower pace than Lewis and thus allowing him to get a gap of at least 1.5 to 3 seconds over 3rd place Max. F1 has deemed it ethical to help a teammate by legally holding up a competitor and this has been done numerous times over the years. In particular, the assisting driver has driven slower (but legally so) through sections in which overtaking is impossible in order to slow down a competitor to help a teammate. As an example, simply look at what FA did to Lewis in Hungary last season.
 

Il_leone

World Champion
Wombat Given what happened the Hamilton haters which now includes Max's wife beating Dad had a field day as it was the Dutch GP as well even so called respectable Ex champions like Villeneuve has had his say.

I am waiting to see when Max has a Vettel moment expecting his team to conjure up some magic strategy when soundly beaten and he gets all sweary. This week at Monza I am expecting the Tifosi to give Verstappen a roasting and the Ferrari drivers to be ultra aggressive including take him outwhich the stewards will deem it a racing incident tbh
 
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