Poll Who is better: Fernando, Lewis, or Sebastian?
- Thread starter Jos the Boss
- Start date
I think you have to minus one from Lewis because this forum has a British majoity and I think you have to add 1 to Vettel's total as due to him being current champion people won't go for him because he's the obvious choice.
Ok so where does that at leave us?
dead heat!
Ok so where does that at leave us?
dead heat!
Jos the Boss
Champion Elect
Ok then who added that Hammy vote?! But then again always happy to see him win!
As we all know, Formula One is all about the car. Put Hamilton or Alonso in that Red Bull and you'd be saying the same thing. I'm not saying Vettel's season has been easy, it's just not as difficult when you're always at the front only having to make 1 or overtakes. Vettel's at the top of his game right now, but as he's shown in previous seasons when he's further down the field he can make errors as Hamilton has done this season.
I didn't mean that the driver and other elements don't matter, I just meant that at the basis of Formula One it all comes down to the limited potential of the car. No one can win a world championship unless their car is the fastest on the grid for some or all of the season, but you don't have to be the best driver to win if you're in the fastest car.
Josh
Champion Elect
I can say with certainty that Vettel is better than Webber but beyond that...
You seem to have missed the fact that Lewis has also beaten two current world champions in the same equipment. We can ignore that if it suits you. My point was that Vettel hasn't been tested against a formidable team-mate. When Vettel has come up against Hamilton and Alonso (I'll chuck in Button for measure) at points where they have had equal machinery or thereabouts, he has generally been beaten. Let's not get off topic. This thread is about how Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel match up against each other. I know I mentioned Webber. Apologies if that's sent you off on a tangent about historical Torro Rosso drivers and Heikki Kovalienen. Let's get off the marbles and back onto the racing line, shall we?
[EDIT] In case this seems odd. It's in reply to a post which no longer exists.
[EDIT] In case this seems odd. It's in reply to a post which no longer exists.
Yeah but actually he tied with Fernando and if Button beats him this year then there even so the only driver you can say he's better for sure than using your logic is Heiki
and I am on the racing line and I never touched your marbles - my point is your not giving Vettel near as enough credit as he deserves and its riddiculous to base your assessment on drivers just on their team mates. If Lewis had Sakon Yamamoto for his team-mate 2007 through to 2010 would that have meant his performances weren't as good and he shouldn't be rated as highly? course not!
My point about the Toro Rosso which you dismissed as not valid does stand. He took a car that was a midfield car and took it to heights no other driver who has been in that car has been able to do. To dismiss it as - well that proves he's better than Sebastian Bourdais(who is an Indy Car champ by the way) is a bit on the silly side, C'mon Ninja you're better than that.
I understand what you're getting at that unless everyone is in equal equiptment you can't get a measure of them but that really is just 6th form Idealistic thinking because its never going to happen. Yes you have to take into account that the majority of the the Red Bull has been the superior car but does that mean you completely disregard all his performances because of it?
Both Fernando's titles were won when he had the superior car and Lewis's title was won when he had the superior car and I tell you what Sebastian had far more competition for his title in 2010 from his team-mate and others around him than Fernando and Lewis has in 05,06 and 08.
Now which of the 3 is superior? I have no idea - I'm sure the years in front of us will show - but dismissing Vettel on the strength of his team-mates is a bit on the daft side ain't it?
and I am on the racing line and I never touched your marbles - my point is your not giving Vettel near as enough credit as he deserves and its riddiculous to base your assessment on drivers just on their team mates. If Lewis had Sakon Yamamoto for his team-mate 2007 through to 2010 would that have meant his performances weren't as good and he shouldn't be rated as highly? course not!
My point about the Toro Rosso which you dismissed as not valid does stand. He took a car that was a midfield car and took it to heights no other driver who has been in that car has been able to do. To dismiss it as - well that proves he's better than Sebastian Bourdais(who is an Indy Car champ by the way) is a bit on the silly side, C'mon Ninja you're better than that.
I understand what you're getting at that unless everyone is in equal equiptment you can't get a measure of them but that really is just 6th form Idealistic thinking because its never going to happen. Yes you have to take into account that the majority of the the Red Bull has been the superior car but does that mean you completely disregard all his performances because of it?
Both Fernando's titles were won when he had the superior car and Lewis's title was won when he had the superior car and I tell you what Sebastian had far more competition for his title in 2010 from his team-mate and others around him than Fernando and Lewis has in 05,06 and 08.
Now which of the 3 is superior? I have no idea - I'm sure the years in front of us will show - but dismissing Vettel on the strength of his team-mates is a bit on the daft side ain't it?
Which of the three is superior. I have an idea, but it is opinion. You must have some idea.
Dismissing Vettel? Not at all. He deserves to be in the top three, undoubtably. I just don't have enough evidence to put him at the top. Again, that's just my opinion though.
I cannot make judgement on Vettel, other than he's a very good driver until he gets the opportunity to prove himself against against a formidable teammate. I do not dismiss his achievements, I just don't think they are yet enough to elevate him above the other greats of this era yet.
Do you think it is wrong that I should have this opinion? I'm happy for you to have yours.
Dismissing Vettel? Not at all. He deserves to be in the top three, undoubtably. I just don't have enough evidence to put him at the top. Again, that's just my opinion though.
I cannot make judgement on Vettel, other than he's a very good driver until he gets the opportunity to prove himself against against a formidable teammate. I do not dismiss his achievements, I just don't think they are yet enough to elevate him above the other greats of this era yet.
Do you think it is wrong that I should have this opinion? I'm happy for you to have yours.
Everyone is indeed entitled to their opinion and I am also very happy to read yours even if from time to time I don't agree with it. I still read it though as maybe you've seen something or thought of something I've missed and maybe it will make me think again. I kind of thought that was the point of the forum.
I'm sorry I've upset you so much Ninja.
I'm sorry I've upset you so much Ninja.
Bushi
Race Winner
I think its more that Fernando can squeeze a team to his willing, the thing Kimi didn't do at Ferrari. Ferrari clearly said they wanted a number one driver, so a driver they only listen to.
Probably the best post yet.
As we all know, it can be the best car on the grid, but if it doesn't suit a driver's style, then they won't get as much as they can out of it.
How about a contest where they all have a go in different vehicles, on various surfaces? 
sounds like an idea
I still think its unfair though because even if you use the same mechanics to build the vehicles they'll race in the mechanics themselves may, even unknowingly, have a preference on which driver they like and therefore try a little bit harder when building their machine.
Or on the day they build the first machine they could be really happy and do an excellent job whilst on the day they build the 3rd machine they might have had a fight with their wife or one of their kids might have chicken poxs and they might be slightly distracted therefore not putting as much concentration into building that one as the first one they built hence it not being equal machinary.
I suppose you could do a time trial using the same vehicle - however the person going first would have an advantage as it would have done less milage when they drove it.
there is only one thing for it - they'll have to build the car's themselves. We need to make sure they all get exactly the same tools and working facilities though otherwise we're stuffed.
There must be a simpler way.
let me think
ok I've got it
How about each year they hold like a championship over say 20 odd races? in each races you get points for finishing in the top 10 - the higher you finish the more points you get. Now although it might not be deadly equal due to the different machinary it should take a fairly accurate snap shot of that years driver form - now although it may feel like one driver has an unfair advantage one year these things will even themselves out over time and what we should be able to do is over the drivers careers use the stats should as race wins, titles, pole positions and fastets laps to determine which is the better driver. I know its not a complete accurate system but sounds the best way to me.
I guess I could try setting it up and see if anyones interested
I still think its unfair though because even if you use the same mechanics to build the vehicles they'll race in the mechanics themselves may, even unknowingly, have a preference on which driver they like and therefore try a little bit harder when building their machine.
Or on the day they build the first machine they could be really happy and do an excellent job whilst on the day they build the 3rd machine they might have had a fight with their wife or one of their kids might have chicken poxs and they might be slightly distracted therefore not putting as much concentration into building that one as the first one they built hence it not being equal machinary.
I suppose you could do a time trial using the same vehicle - however the person going first would have an advantage as it would have done less milage when they drove it.
there is only one thing for it - they'll have to build the car's themselves. We need to make sure they all get exactly the same tools and working facilities though otherwise we're stuffed.
There must be a simpler way.
let me think
ok I've got it
How about each year they hold like a championship over say 20 odd races? in each races you get points for finishing in the top 10 - the higher you finish the more points you get. Now although it might not be deadly equal due to the different machinary it should take a fairly accurate snap shot of that years driver form - now although it may feel like one driver has an unfair advantage one year these things will even themselves out over time and what we should be able to do is over the drivers careers use the stats should as race wins, titles, pole positions and fastets laps to determine which is the better driver. I know its not a complete accurate system but sounds the best way to me.
I guess I could try setting it up and see if anyones interested
Jos the Boss
Champion Elect
Or a fastest lap competition. All 3 in the same car 3 laps each and take an average. Seb does his lap gets out then Alonso does his gets out and Lewis does his.
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