The V6 Engines

Discussion in 'Formula One Discussion' started by sushifiesta, Jan 25, 2014.

  1. sushifiesta

    sushifiesta Champion Elect Contributor

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    We have a thread to talk about the launches of the cars but I think we should have a separate place to discuss the engines themselves, which I'm sure will be one of the key talking points throughout the year. Moving from the naturally aspirated 2.4 litre V8s to 1.6 litre V6 turbos with various energy recovery systems bolted on is the biggest change F1 has seen for decades in fact.

    Here is a good video that explains the changes and how the engines work:


    And a more detailed article here from somersf1:
    http://somersf1.blogspot.fr/2013/01/2014s-power-units-16-v6-turbos-with-ers.html

    Some bullet points to try to explain everything briefly:

    600bhp
    excluding energy recovery systems

    Rev Limit: 15,000 rpm.

    Gears
    : 8 with ratios fixed throughout the season (previously the teams were allowed to use 30 different ratios throughout the season. This is made possible because the new engines can deliver high power through a much wider rev range (10,000-15,000rpm) than the V8s).

    Only 5 power units
    (engine, turbo and associated energy recovery systems) allowed per driver per season.

    Efficiency
    : Fuel flow limit of 100kg/hour and no more than 100kg to be used in the race. Direct fuel injection is also introduced. Overall the engines will be roughly 30% more efficient than the V8s were.

    ERS-H/MGU-H:
    When decelerating, power generated from the spinning turbo can be used to charge the batteries. The motor used to do this can also be used to spin up the turbo using the power from the batteries (in this case the power could also have been derived from ERS-K). In this way turbo lag can be largely eradicated.

    ERS-K/MGU-K:
    What we knew as KERS before - when decelerating/braking for a corner the residual power of the engine is used to drive a generator that charges the batteries. The generator can later be used as a motor to drive the engine from the batteries, with ERS-K providing around an extra 160bhp in 2014 for 33 seconds per lap (80bhp for 6.7s per lap in 2013 with the V8s). ERS-K will now be deployed automatically via the engine maps rather than the drivers having to press a button, so in this sense it is no longer an overtaking aid.

    Batteries
    : Can store up to 4 MJ (a factor of 10 more than 2013) and must weigh between 20 and 25 kg.

    Manufacturers: Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault are the only manufacturers supplying engines in 2014. Honda will return in 2015 to supply McLaren (and presumably others). It has also emerged that Cosworth have developed an engine so it can make a return to Formula 1 at some point (http://www.racecar-engineering.com/news/cosworth-reveals-2014-f1-power-unit/). The engine manufacturers will supply the following teams in 2014:
    • Mercedes: Mercedes, Williams, McLaren, Force India
    • Ferrari: Ferrari, Sauber, Marussia
    • Renault: Red Bull, Toro Rosso, Lotus, Caterham
    Pictures and videos with the sounds of the new engines have already emerged. Here are a few examples:

    ferr-0593-preview-2013-10.jpg mercedes-2014-v6-f1-engine.jpg renault-energy-f1.jpg







    I'm sure we'll have much to talk about in the next week with us getting to hear the engines in anger properly for the first time... and I wouldn't be surprised if there's a few fires as well...
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2014
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  3. sushifiesta

    sushifiesta Champion Elect Contributor

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    In response to my own thread, I have a question/observation. Here is a video with some nice clips of the sound of GP2 cars (which have V8s):



    Also, here are the Barcelona qualifying times for F1 and GP2 from 2013:

    F1: Pole Position: 1m20.718, 22nd Position: 1m25.070.
    GP2: Pole Position: 1m28.706

    It's predicted that the 2014 F1 cars will be about 5s per lap slower and adding that on to the 2013 times gives 1m25.718 for pole and 1m30.070 for 22nd place. The GP2 pole time would be good enough for 19th place on the F1 grid if you add five seconds on to all the times - faster than the Marussias and Caterhams but a few tenths behind Williams.

    Here is my question then: Could we have a situation this year where GP2 is more like F1 than F1? They still have V8s so could sound more like F1 2013 and could well be running at a similar pace to F1 2014 (unless I have missed some regulation that will slow down GP2).
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2014
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  4. Bushi

    Bushi Pole Sitter

    I can say that I am not impressed at all by the sound of the V6 engine.
    And that's pretty frighting sight, cause things aren't gonna improve for the future when F1 ultimately
    goes from combustion engines to electric.
     
  5. sushifiesta

    sushifiesta Champion Elect Contributor

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    Toro Rosso have released a video with the sound of their Renault engine from the shakedown they did yesterday:


    I think they sound pretty good but in the way that many other race series sound good. I'm not sure it will hit you so hard at the track side - the sound of the V12/V10/V8 screams was unique to F1 and amazing to experience. It's still too early to really say though of course.
     
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  6. Titch

    Titch Smile Premium Contributor

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    We ..well, I, have no access to GP2, but I have to say that in the coming season I would love to be able to make a comparison of the F1 and F2 engines side by side.

    What about a race. That would be good.
     
  7. Fenderman

    Fenderman Rooters Reporter

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    Nice to see all that in one thread sushifiesta . Theres quite a lot of comment on the power units splattered in "Technical" threads. Some relevant meaty posts on this subject that might be of interest to folks new to the forum can be found here:

    http://cliptheapex.com/threads/2014-technical-regulations.3311/page-5#post-186675

    http://cliptheapex.com/threads/2014-technical-regulations.3311/page-6#post-190265

    http://cliptheapex.com/threads/2014-technical-regulations.3311/page-6#post-204550

    http://cliptheapex.com/threads/2014-technical-regulations.3311/page-7#post-211118

    http://cliptheapex.com/threads/2014-technical-regulations.3311/page-10#post-222288
    http://cliptheapex.com/threads/2014-technical-regulations.3311/page-10#post-222302
    http://cliptheapex.com/threads/2014-technical-regulations.3311/page-10#post-222303
    http://cliptheapex.com/threads/2014-technical-regulations.3311/page-10#post-222388
    http://cliptheapex.com/threads/2014-technical-regulations.3311/page-12#post-225093

    http://cliptheapex.com/threads/2014-technical-regulations.3311/page-13#post-225416

    TBH I've posted the links to save me from covering old ground but also to draw attention to Blog Zbod 's quite exhaustive considerations with regard to the performance and technicalities of the units. I've not included links to posts you've made already, sushifiesta , as you've brought most of it together in your OP.
     
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  8. Slyboogy

    Slyboogy World Champion Contributor

    I'm not sure that's a good thing.
     
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  9. Titch

    Titch Smile Premium Contributor

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    Is it just me or does that Torro Rosso engine sound like a powerful motor bike.
     
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  10. sushifiesta

    sushifiesta Champion Elect Contributor

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    There is an argument developing regarding this line in the technical regulations:
    Mercedes and Renault have taken this to mean that they must cover their turbos for safety reasons in the event of a failure, with the covers weighing several kilogrammes. Ferrari on the other hand have not covered their turbo, but may still comply with the regulations presuming the teams they supply have been told that they must provide some sort of safety structure. This then leaves the teams free to develop that structure to make it lighter or give an aerodynamic benefit throughout the season, whereas if the cover is part of the power unit it can't be changed once the engines are homologated.

    We have our first engine controversy of 2014. There is nothing from the horse's mouth yet but it's been reported here for example: http://somersf1.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/turbo-cover-it-or-not.html
     
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  11. Bushi

    Bushi Pole Sitter

    Indeed, but still much better than this:

     
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  12. sushifiesta

    sushifiesta Champion Elect Contributor

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    Slyboogy I think KERS worked quite well as an overtaking aid as well, it's implementation was certainly a hell of a lot better than the DRS rules. There will be much more scope for the drivers to "turn the engine up" and use more power in order to try to make/defend an overtake though as they will be running at much less than peak performance during the races to be able to make it to the end within the fuel restrictions. So it will change from "push button to pass" to "change engine settings to pass".

    Managing fuel has the potential to be one of the most frustrating aspects of 2014 though having said that, it was bad enough with drivers being told not to get in to long on track battles in 2013 in order to save tyres.
     
  13. Bushi

    Bushi Pole Sitter

    Isn't it because 6sec. of KERS you can use strategically on track, whereas with the 30sec. of ERS they will just have to push the button all the way on every straight there is, except for monza and spa. So there is no need for a button.
     
  14. sushifiesta

    sushifiesta Champion Elect Contributor

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    It will be used in a completely different way Bushi , the power harvested from ERS-K will now probably be used mostly to spin up the turbo when accelerating out of corners so the power provided by the turbo is available instantly and not only after the engine revs build up. It may then continue to be used in spurts after gear changes like you currently see with KERS (when not being used for overtakes) but I doubt it will ever all be used in one lump on a straight. It probably won't even be possible to do that as it will all be handled by engine maps.

    EDIT: In other news the (Renault powered) Toro Rosso also has very skinny sidepods. I'm worried that, despite the reports of them having the most powerful engine, Mercedes engine runs hotter than the others thus compromising the aerodynamics for those teams.

    EDIT 2: I'm not sure I understand or believe anything I've just written about ERS-K. :thinking: 30 odd seconds is a significant part of the lap so maybe it will be deployed for a decent fraction of the straights. Hopefully we'll get graphics in the onboard shots that show what on Earth is going on with the engines.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2014
  15. siffert_fan

    siffert_fan Too old to watch the Asian races live. Contributor

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    What makes me laugh is that the w12 engine in the Napier-Railton of the 30s has almost 2 litres displacement PER CYLINDER. Makes today's iron look rather puny.
     
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  16. sushifiesta

    sushifiesta Champion Elect Contributor

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    After a second glance at the Toro Rosso (with some help from a Scarbs video) the Toro Rosso sidepods are not as small as they first looked and they also have a large air intake for the engine underneath the roll hoop. So maybe it's just Ferrari that have found something with the cooling...
     
  17. sushifiesta

    sushifiesta Champion Elect Contributor

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    The Mercedes (and Red Bull) sidepods look reassuringly small though, so I guess we're seeing that the top teams have put some money in to cooling.
     
  18. sushifiesta

    sushifiesta Champion Elect Contributor

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    More engine sounds:



    Any more thoughts?
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2014
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  19. F1Yorkshire

    F1Yorkshire Avatar for sale to the highest bidder Contributor

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    We just need a bit more popping noise when the fuel burns off and then we have the classic rally car sound.
     
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  20. Jen

    Jen Here be dragons. Contributor

    A lot of 'feathering' and no real power - going to be a funny old season.
     
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  21. Sergio

    Sergio Learner

    The scary part is that so far, there are just matching GP2 pace (2011 Jerez test with Leimer, Fillipi and Bird in low 1.27...)
     
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