Politics The EU

Discussion in 'Gravel Trap' started by mjo, Oct 24, 2011.

  1. FB

    FB Not my cup of cake Valued Member

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    You have to love the fact that someone has taken the time to create a Wiki page to explain that the European Comission doesn't create pointless regulations. The sad fact is that is creates reams and reams of pointless regulations, very few of which are based on science, scrutinised objectively or provide any improvement to the life of European citizens.

    The Commission is arrogant, self serving and prone to be vengeful. I had a conversation with a colleague of mine recently as we were attempting to get ECHA to remove some guidance it had published (note, this was guidance so has no legal standing but, to the minds of the European agencies and the Commission at least, MUST be followed) and I suggested using the European Ombudsman system to arbitrate. Oh no, he said, if we go down that road the Commission will find other ways to punish us at another time.

    So now we have an opinion put forward by an individual who works at a "help desk" in Brussels which is defacto law. We have no route or recourse to challenge this interpretation beacuse if we do the Commission will "get it's own back" later.

    It serves the European Comission well to pretend that there are many myths about their regulations as it distracts from the real ones which are causing problems and taking the whole of Europe backwards.

    So, from my perspective, the EEC was a great thing. A unified trading block which allowed countries very close to one another to interact on a business basis almost unfettered. We should extend that around the world to stop the crazy trade wars and countries subsidising their industries to gain political clout on the world stage.

    The European Union however, is empire building by a group of unelected psuedo intellectuals who believe that they know what is right and they will inflict their vision of the world on the proleteriate whether we like it or not. Should you question the vision they have you are a bigot, a racist or xenophobic and therefore your opinion musn't count as it doesn't agree with their narrow, liberal, bourgeois agenda. In fact, your opinion shouldn't just be ignored it should be pilloried and ridiculed to ensure no one else is brave enough to agree with you or state the same.

    There are more idealogs and bigots in the European Union and within the UK Remain camp than sit outside it. But, of course, they are right.
     
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  3. gethinceri

    gethinceri Daniil Kvyat Fan. Alfa Romeo Fan. Contributor

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    Indeed we are.
    ;)
     
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  4. Andyoak

    Andyoak Race Winner

    FB, I'll question the final paragraph (or at least see it as a rhetorical flourish); but agree with the rest.
     
  5. Izumi

    Izumi Points Scorer

    s
    A lot to chew on in this painful assessment, but thanks anyway. Searching for answers did not get me too far. We should not forget in the heat of summer sun, that EU is a homogenous political and economical system, which is evolving, not totally perfect yet, and all of us on the inside have a lot of work to do to make it even more livable than it is already. To all those who stand on sidelines, commenting harshly or favorably, fact is, I have no response that would satisfy external noise, if that matters at all.

    In psychology courses the three assumptions are discussed . The arguments leading from cognitive biases to governmental paternalism. Lack of rationality, stubbornness, and costs— all of those imply that there is slim chance that people can ever learn or be educated out of their biases; EU governments, moving ball forward, need to consider whether to step in with a policy called libertarian paternalism (Discussed by Thaler and Sunstein, 2003), or find some other means how to reconcile melting pot of opinions. I am patient enough to wait.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2019
  6. cider_and_toast

    cider_and_toast Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex Staff Member Premium Contributor

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    The work of Stanley Milgram and Phillip Zimbardo on the psychological effects of perceived power shows that organisations will tend towards absolute control if not checked and that those working in the name of that authority will harm others, all the way up to and including killing, if they believe their actions are legitimised by the implied authority of the organisation.

    This idea is further developed in the work of Ron Jones in America. Later this was developed as a story based on Jones experiment but set in modern day Germany and released as the critically acclaimed film "Die Welle"
     
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  7. Izumi

    Izumi Points Scorer

    In contrast to voices heard on this forum, I am satisfied that EU has sufficient control over governing without being unnecessarily bogged done and paralyzed by ineffective, and excessive self-centered noises on the system. This is an important factor to consider for embryonic stage EU is in, when we, just as newlyweds, are learning to live together under one roof, while trying to find our useful place in the new formation. There is nowhere written that borders created by a man cannot be taken down by a man, and changed into something else; that's the plan.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2019
  8. RasputinLives

    RasputinLives Not dead Contributor

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    But the EU isn't taking down borders - it's just moving them elsewhere.
     
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  9. Andyoak

    Andyoak Race Winner

    Hmmmm, EU feels like a Muslim or Mormon (balance needed) marriage; where Germany is the husband and he has many wives. Some are more important (France) than others.

    But the interest in the a analogy is that the wives aren't allowed to have many husband's.
     
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  10. Andyoak

    Andyoak Race Winner

    The EU is a paternalistic dictatorship.
     
  11. FB

    FB Not my cup of cake Valued Member

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    The EU is VERY far from having either an homogeneous political or economical system. In fact, the lack of lack of homogeneity is one of the most significant problems. There are no common sales tax rates, and income or corporate tax rates.

    Bizarrely, European countries are put in competition between one another in a race to the bottom on taxes, which results in high rates of tax avoidance by multi-national corporations as they move money from nation to nation based on who will offer them the best rates. For many years it was the Irish who led the way, with numerous shell companies set up in Dublin especially Apple. Now, I believe, it is the Dutch who are offering to negotiate on corporation tax, which is resulting in many companies moving their headquarters to Amsterdam.

    Amazon, of course, are based in Luxembourg, a member of the European Union. They have a special deal which means they pay 7.25% to the Grand Duchy whilst others are expected to pay 29%. Well done Luxembourg and the EU for doing the best for their citizens!

    Oh, and whilst we are on how well the EU looks after its member states, the recent trade deal signed with Japan has consigned all the Japanese car plants here in the UK to the bin. By creating a free trade deal there is no longer any need for Japanese car makers to produce in Europe so they can close all their plants down (and you all thought it was because of Brexit).

    Meanwhile all the German, French and Italian car makers get a free pass to sell their machines in Japan, not that the French of Italian cars will be of much interest to Japanese consumers. And that leaves Germany in a great trading position on car sales to Japan. What a shocker.
     
  12. Izumi

    Izumi Points Scorer

    I like German made cars, not that anything is wrong with Japanese products. I am not sure what the point is here. Consumers are buying what they like, what they can afford, and what is available. What else is there to be said about that subject? It has been repeated almost every week in some argument in defense of common market, that it holds superior negotiating leverage over smaller states. No surprises if that turns to be the truth.
    Trading is a matter of negotiations, and some are better at it than others, so much is also true, but at the end you still need something for sale which consumers want. On streets of Tokyo I see Audi, BMW, Mercedes, all in good numbers. Germany is a trading nation, just as Japan is, so they trade. I have no problem with that. It is also matter of public record, that Japanese automakers through their commercial representatives warned UK government repeatedly of potential negative impact on the industry in UK after Brexit, so, no surprises there, however there are not all leaving, are they? I was not that much interested in that, so I don't know what the plans are in UK after Brexit.

    On subject of taxes, my understanding of it is scarce and incoherent. I know it is area of concern, but I am not well versed in that subject, and we have to wait what new people at the top will do about it. That's about as far as I can dare to venture.
     
  13. Izumi

    Izumi Points Scorer

    Well that's only half-true, and I think you know that. Border known as Brexit wasn't erected or proposed by EU.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2019
  14. Izumi

    Izumi Points Scorer

    What on earth are you on about? Would you feel better if UK plays husband with whole Europe wife to you?
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2019
  15. RasputinLives

    RasputinLives Not dead Contributor

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    I wasn't talking about Brexit. There is a whole other world out there.
     
  16. RasputinLives

    RasputinLives Not dead Contributor

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    So the entire European Parliament are united against the choosing of the new European Commission President behind close doors. They've branded the selection of Von der Laten, a member of Merkle's CDU party and someone who was not even on the candidate list, as an 'un-democratic stitch up by national governments'.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...der-leyen-juncker-eu-parliament-a8987841.html

    They all spoke about it but Gonzalez Pons who leads the biggest party in the parliament hit nail on head for me - "the people of Europe want to elect the person who is governing them - this is not revolutionary, this is democracy"

    Very similar to what most of us have been saying on here really.
     
  17. cider_and_toast

    cider_and_toast Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex Staff Member Premium Contributor

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    Well, well, well, perhaps the worm is finally turning.
     
  18. gethinceri

    gethinceri Daniil Kvyat Fan. Alfa Romeo Fan. Contributor

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    ***immediately thinks of The Two Ronnies.
     
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  19. cider_and_toast

    cider_and_toast Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex Staff Member Premium Contributor

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    Diana Dors LOL
     
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  20. gethinceri

    gethinceri Daniil Kvyat Fan. Alfa Romeo Fan. Contributor

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    Just in case (and, yes, it is on topic):
     
  21. RasputinLives

    RasputinLives Not dead Contributor

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    So I'm reading a lot about the EU of late as you may have noticed and now reading the Switzerland, who are kind of in the EU but aren't really, are kicking back at the EU attempting to bring them into line with policies on freedom of movement for workers.

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1150146/eu-latest-news-switzerland-exit-brexit-stock-exchange

    Apparently Swiss leaders agreed to except EU laws on this but the deal was rejected by their Parliament (sound familiar?). It's now suggested they might cut all ties with the EU. One Swiss official said that basically there is a trade war now between EU and Switzerland.

    Switzerland has basically always played banker in European affairs for the last century so this is a real odd one. I can see both sides of the argument to be honest
     

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