Politics The EU

Discussion in 'Gravel Trap' started by mjo, Oct 24, 2011.

  1. Izumi

    Izumi Rookie

    Nancy Pelosi on Brexit: why Irish-US diplomacy is a powerful force in border talks

    Nancy Pelosi's message to London - don't even think about it!
    ...she stated that “if there were any weakening of the Good Friday accords there would be no chance whatsoever, a non-starter for a US-UK trade agreement …
    Has anyone feeling that timing of her visit was rather calculated before POTUS will manage to do "his magic" during his forthcoming visit?
    Poor Brexiteers. Fighting among themselves, fighting with PM, fighting with House Speaker, and now Nancy stepped into it. What the world is coming to after three years of dreams?
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2019
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  3. Dartman

    Dartman Points Scorer

    The USA supported the IRA via Noraid, they have a political agenda regards Ireland, both of them, the Irish have a powerful political lobby in Washington, about a powerful as Israeli one, there are certain US politicians who consider Ireland as their back yard not the UK's. The US would prefer the EU to disappear and prefer Brexit, a powerful EU is not in their interests, though a strong NATO is
    Andyoak likes this.
  4. Izumi

    Izumi Rookie


    In the past EU was exposed to explicit rhetoric to the effect - you are not welcomed. These days we have people (Bannon and a few others) landing on our shores and conducting what can be considered as hostile acts, and no one is arresting those developments.

    From Wolfowitz Doctrine to many others. I recall what Brzezinski postulated in Apr 2016 in his "Strategic vision". In his second verity he has predicted it will be Russia which will be a leading European nation. In his fourth verity, without any explanation how he has arrived to conclusion in which he has dismissed Europe as nothing, not now, or ever. (500 Mill people is "nothing" to him.)

    It is for us then to live as best as we can, rather than as we are permitted by colonial powers. (Chomsky has more to say on subject of Why.)
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2019
  5. Izumi

    Izumi Rookie

    What an inovated way to get elected on basis of ideological dogma (in lieu of specific programme.)

    Nigel Farage REFUSES to publish a Brexit Party manifesto until after EU elections.
  6. Andyoak

    Andyoak Race Winner

    Farage is the one person who doesn't need a manifesto: we all know what he stands for.
    F1Brits_90 likes this.
  7. Izumi

    Izumi Rookie

    In US it is something similar. There is a (forgotten) class, which feels they tried left, they tried right, and nothing has changed, thus any new charlatan on the corner should be tried too, because it cannot be any worse than it is now. Regarding of a truth, such things used to happen, but not anymore; they all are "interpreting" facts as it suits them, therefore no one from this group of voters wants to stop and be bothered by sorting out polemics. Kitchen table issues, survival, are more important (in this short sighted world we live today).
  8. Izumi

    Izumi Rookie

    I have never feared for my country's future.. until now

    Broadcaster Gavin Esler:

    I have joined Change UK because it is the Remain alliance – of people who were once members of the Conservative, Labour, Liberal Democrats, Greens and Scottish National Party, and people like me who had no interest ever in joining any party.

    We have three clear objectives: Stop Brexit, fix Britain, reform the EU. The first step is a People's Vote. I want to bring this Brexit nightmare to an end. A confirmatory vote will mean we can move on to the real problems we face.
    Refreshing to hear that. Engage, and Do, instead staying passive or running away. That's the way to do it IMHO. Now we need to hear specifics, but so far its music to my ears.
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
  9. Dartman

    Dartman Points Scorer

    Ah would you be happy to hear the opposite? Both camps have valid opinions:)
  10. Izumi

    Izumi Rookie

    My sympathy is with a man who professes willingness to correct what needs to be corrected, add his voice of a reason, and move on, instead ranting about negatives and plays hands-off game.
    In chaff of Brexit rhetoric I am struggling and experiencing genuine difficulty to understand what the "valid opinion" of Brexit actually is. I was lectured on pages of this bulletin board how important are election, yet look at what is happening now. I am sure you are familiar with details, however from the distance perception is, that Brexiteers are very busy with what can be considered as sabotaging election process and suppress democratic voices as much as they legally can.
    Just this week one survey declares Farage and Johnson as two leading candidates for Tory leadership. What does that tell you about state of politics? Do you really believe those two individuals have on their minds anything more than self interest? Maybe they do, but then let's hear it, because right now other than agenda containing weakening EU's interests, fragmentation, rise of dependency, burn and damage, etc., I am yet to learn of anything else.
    Presumably it would be waste of time for anyone telling them that continental Europe has no desire to become Anglo-Saxon colony, but we are prepared to cooperate in moving life forward in some useful manner, and yes, we all know it will be a struggle. I can live with that.
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2019
  11. Dartman

    Dartman Points Scorer

    I think you are losing the plot Izumi, Farage could not be a Tory leader contender he isn't and never was a Tory party member, the country voted out of the EU under the terms of the referendum, that is democracy, the pro EU ( Remainers) disrupted the Brexit result to leave. You may state your preferences but not distort the truth, the UK as a whole voted out, maybe only just but that is democracy.
    Angel likes this.
  12. Izumi

    Izumi Rookie

    Survey result conducted in UK naming Farage and Johnson as preferred (potential) Tory leaders is not a product of my imagination. Admittedly it includes some hypothetical, and I was aware of it. Point is, Farage has his followers, and numbers are pretty good.

    With respect of referendum, legality of it is not a question, however invoking Article 50 based on referendum result is. This has been discussed just a page or two back. (Post #1422.) Despite some violation of agreements UK accepted in the past, perhaps throwing 48.1% of voters under the bus I do not see entirely democratic, and for that reason confirmatory referendum seems the only appropriate remedy at this stage, despite all opposition.

    Don't forget this is only a chat. A voice from sidelines. No one would be gross enough to tell UK voters what you must do. (Not that I would expect anyone listen anyway.)
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2019
  13. RasputinLives

    RasputinLives Not dead Contributor

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    Izumi I think you have been a victim of some untrue press. Nigel Farage can not be leader of the Tory Party as he is not in the Tory Party. His popularity in the UK is so low that he has 3 times failed to be elected as a member of parliament. I'm not sure who took the survey or where you read it but I believe you may have been mislead by a right wing based publication.
  14. Izumi

    Izumi Rookie

    I am aware of where Farage stands. I need to improve my communication skills, since I thought I made that point earlier. Question was hypothetical, if Farage would become Tory, answer was yes. He should replace PM May. Actually he came up second after Johnson, who leads random polling data (as I understand it). My source - Andrew Adonis.

    A Survation poll of Tory councillors last weekend found that 40% intended to vote for the Brexit Party and – wait for it – that Farage is now their second most popular candidate to be next Tory leader, narrowly behind Boris Johnson.
    The two parties have become almost interchangeable. When I asked why a particular person appeared in the list of Farage MEP candidates this week, a friend of the candidate said: “He tried the Tories and found it too slow and did not have connections.”
  15. RasputinLives

    RasputinLives Not dead Contributor

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    I still think that's a right wing publication. Farage ran his own party at last general election and did not get one seat - including not getting himself elected. The public has had many chances both before and after the Brexit vote to cast a vote for Nigel Farage and not many have. I guess survey results depend on who you ask.

    Johnson I can believe - although it would be interesting to know when the survey was taken as his popularity has fallen a lot in last few months even among brexiters. Firstly he is is perceived as having walked us into brexit and then clearing off with no answer as to how, and secondly there is his no infamous comment about money being wasted on Child Abuse claims when it could be spent elsewhere.
  16. RasputinLives

    RasputinLives Not dead Contributor

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    Just seen the source. Andrew Adonis very much has a political agenda and has been jumping around with his view point and project fear for a while now.
  17. Titch

    Titch Champion Elect Premium Contributor

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    Andrew Adonis is a dangerous man.
  18. Izumi

    Izumi Rookie

    Thank you all for input. I am a stubborn person, but not stubborn enough to refuse well reasoned argument. I still think that Gavin Esler has a practical point to make, despite my awareness of danger as expressed in the very old joke. (When I like what I am hearing, then it's news, however if I don't like it, its enemy's propaganda.)
    RasputinLives likes this.
  19. Dartman

    Dartman Points Scorer

    A survey is just that, it asks the question to a selected number of people, the selection is the key, as they are not random but selected areas and social criteria, the last two general elections proved they no longer work to predict any result other than tossing a coin, even the referendum was forecast wrong, they are a method of employing the unemployable to earn a crust:D
  20. Izumi

    Izumi Rookie

    EU related elections in UK are going forward. Rather unfortunate developments with predictable end, some may say. I too slowly falling into that group. Pres. Frank Steinmeier suggested horror story needs to end, but is anyone listening?
    British politics of today remind me of Hindu classic Mahabharata as described by W. Saxe: "...it was not a book at all, but rather oral epic...tradition...political model...a bed time story, a tradition of dance, spectacle, and much more."
    I gather Brits see Brexit as their Mahabharata, and after having three years to think about, with many more years in the past living with doubts, now they cannot turn it off. It is becoming their tradition, their dance, their bed time story.
    Last edited: May 8, 2019
  21. cider_and_toast

    cider_and_toast Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex Staff Member Premium Contributor

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    I prefer to think of it as Franz Kafka's "The Castle"

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