Politics The EU

Discussion in 'Gravel Trap' started by mjo, Oct 24, 2011.

  1. Izumi

    Izumi Points Scorer

    My responsibility to find solutions.
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  3. Dartman

    Dartman Points Scorer

    You may find ideas here, solutions is a step to far:D
  4. Izumi

    Izumi Points Scorer

    Some would argue birth of this mess could be traced back to Regan and Thatcher, if not sooner. Cameron just lighted a matchstick. Rather unfortunate.
  5. Dartman

    Dartman Points Scorer

    Izumi I would disagree Thatcher was happy with the Common Market, she wasn't happy with the EU and it's proposed future, you can't blame her, the Germans supplied Argentina with submarines and wire guided torpedoes along with their maintenance during the Falklands conflict also with the French and their support with the Exorcet missile, you can understand her not wanting to get into bed with such wonderful friends.
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
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  6. Izumi

    Izumi Points Scorer

    I beg to disagree. We are not supposed to talk ill about people who are not anymore with us, however I recommend find and read collection of her quotes about Germany, German culture, and German people. She hated all. She hated Germans to last day of her life, she considered unification of Germany as her biggest policy mistake. I have to stop now, before it gets out of hands, and surely you do not need to ask me what I think of her.
    By its very nature, Germany is a destabilizing, rather than a stabilizing, force in Europe," Thatcher wrote in her autobiography in 1993.
    "Germany has veered between aggression and self-doubt. The true origin of German angst is the agony of self-knowledge."

    Well Lady Thatcher, if you are so inclined to listen, dislike and lack of respect is mutual. She called Moscow two months before Berlin wall felt, that she is not supporting unified Germany. She had anger oozing from her eyes when Chancellor Kohl dared to take photo with her and Regan. Who is he, she asked. (Kohl was initially a mentor of Dr. Merkel.)

    Right, and look today what's left of her party. Just anger, hatred, ...
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
  7. Andyoak

    Andyoak Race Winner

    Thatcher was a product of her generation; the experience of WW2 was still very important then. These are different times.
  8. Dartman

    Dartman Points Scorer

    Disagree all you like Izumi, she was our PM and dragged this country from its probably its lowest in esteem and financial ruin, of course you would disagree, the rise of a unified Germany to her was a danger, a powerful Germany to her was a threat to Europe, after all a unified powerful Germany ended up causing two world wars in one century, I believe she didn't expect another war, but she was wary of its ambitions, some would say rightly so.
  9. Izumi

    Izumi Points Scorer

    Some analyses do sugest UK was declining in power, influence, and economy. Upturn of UK fortunes found its roots in joining EU, a step which rubbed Thatcher wrong way. It was revival of competetivenes with EU, which turn UK into right direction over any single political decision she was capable off.
    Duo Thatcher and Regan deregulating financial and other markets are credited in some analyses for most of misery which exists today, but maybe that's another subject for another day.
    With respect to causes and origins of both wars in last century, I am only hoping that one day we learn the truth how and why it all started.

    It is not my aim to attack a historical figure which means a lot for some UK citizens, however I fear that not too many people have taken time to learn historical impact she had on future of UK. 50 years after last war she had very few, if any, factual reason to sustain her hatred of Germany. She was who she was.
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
  10. RasputinLives

    RasputinLives Not dead Contributor

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    Thatcher is the worst thing to have ever happened to the UK. Every problem we have today can be linked back to her policies. She destroyed industry and divided families.
  11. F1Brits_90

    F1Brits_90 Race Winner

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    i always remembered Margaret Thatcher death in the newspapers. the contrast in front pages was ridiculous half were cracking out the champagne:cheers:, half were in mourning.:teary:

    found a few from that day





    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
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  12. Ruslan

    Ruslan Points Scorer

    Well, take care guy, and hope things work out.
  13. Izumi

    Izumi Points Scorer

    Thank you old friend.
  14. Dartman

    Dartman Points Scorer

    The country was still going downhill after we joined the EU, Thatcher wasn't elected until 1979, I'll give you an example of the country, my brother a check in clerk for British Airways was on only £500 less than me, a highly qualified senior technical NCO in submarines, you think I'm going to knock the PM that gave me a 40% pay rise in a year?
  15. Izumi

    Izumi Points Scorer

    Personal bias vis a vis Thatcher and Regan aside, problem(s) is older than those two. Neither of them was that smart. This might not be a place for in-depth discussion of that kind, since future between UK and EU is in stake. For those who studied history they might have came accross name Thorstein Veblen (late 19th century). American, educated at Ivy league schools, polyglot, student of anthropology, sociology, philosophy, and economics. Unburdened with Stock Exchange, he is credited with describing already then why situation for civil society might turn as it has. For those who didn't hear of this man, I recommend pick some reading about his work for added understanding of events which stand behind current mess we find is spreading across borders on global scale.
  16. Dartman

    Dartman Points Scorer

    You have to remember that the USA was a young nation populated in 18th and 19th century by many whose views were considered contrary to the politics of the day and left their countries of birth, their universities were in a fledgling era, you can't change history but you can teach it to state another perspective that may not be totally historic .
    Perhaps it's best not to quote history to those who have lived in it, we have a different outlook on history to those who are now taught it by those with a different agenda and also didn't live in it
  17. Izumi

    Izumi Points Scorer

    Sure, there is such thing as momentum, however based on survival instincts, while some UK companies died, whereas others changed their MO, and flourished. Hard to say today whether conditions would have been different without market pressure which EU membership presented. Discussion about pro and con of that era and various convenient interpretations which in abundance we find everywhere, including market tabloids, that reading of history continues.
  18. Izumi

    Izumi Points Scorer

    I am hoping this will not surprise you, but I do agree with you. While we cannot or should not avoid interpreting historical records on events now long past, not everyone can travel with his mind that far back, and fit his mind into frame of that era. The same is true when we read books like Koran, Bible, Talmud, or Republic...
  19. FB

    FB Not my cup of cake Valued Member

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    Is Maggie the new version of Godwin's law?
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  20. Izumi

    Izumi Points Scorer

    I thought we are finish we her. It was I who raised her name, and that only because someone blamed Cameron for mess.

    Cameron for me a product of what is probably century old problem. One could go 100 years+ to look for origins of causes leading into current politics, however Thatcher and Regan with their (dergulatory) ideas I think was a new begging on that curve.
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
  21. Andyoak

    Andyoak Race Winner

    History is the cause of all of our problems.
    A desire for a Federal EU wouldn't exist without history.
    Civilisation is a result of someone or something in history.

    You cannot blame something in the past; only use it to help understand the present.
    You cannot use history to predict the future (IMHO).

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