Politics The EU

Discussion in 'Gravel Trap' started by mjo, Oct 24, 2011.

  1. cider_and_toast

    cider_and_toast Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex Staff Member Premium Contributor

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    The trouble is, as it stands we can occasionally grab an oar and club one of the other crew members over the head with it. While that may not be enough to change the direction of the boat it may make people stop and think for a while.

    After Brexit we'll be in a little boat tied to the back of the big one going where ever that big one takes us with out a paddle of our own.
     
    Andyoak and Bill Boddy like this.
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  3. Bill Boddy

    Bill Boddy Professional layabout Premium Contributor

    It is up to them to decide whether or not to keep hold of the painter.
     
    cider_and_toast likes this.
  4. Titch

    Titch Smile Premium Contributor

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    Well cider_and_toast maybe we should just let go and sail off into the sunset.

    And that’s coming from someone who voted remain.
     
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  5. Bill Boddy

    Bill Boddy Professional layabout Premium Contributor

    Mrs May suffers a terrible shock, despite all her to-ing and fro-ing the EU's position has not changed and the DUP's position has not changed. I wanted to put a bet on that she will not allow a vote next week either but the bookie could not stop laughing long enough to take it.

    'No way' DUP will back Brexit deal
     
  6. F1Brits_90

    F1Brits_90 Race Winner

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    this sounds like the best deal that we have currently. we cant have 2nd vote because it would devide the nation even more. but we considering we decided to leave the EU & the extent of the leave campaign planning if they were successful was 'brexit means brexit' lets actually have a proper plan instead of panic rush job

    Screenshot_20190105-111945.jpg
     
  7. Bill Boddy

    Bill Boddy Professional layabout Premium Contributor

    Since there still has not been a "meaningful vote" taken by the MPs technically there is no current deal yet F1Brits_90 . I do not see how another vote would make things any worse than they currently are apart from which democracy is not fixed in stone but can change with time, ask the Swiss.

    I do not believe that Mrs May will allow a free vote of MPs if she can possibly get away with it. We are currently in limbo; one MP having a heart attack could change everything which I find to be a rather scary thought.
     
  8. Dartman

    Dartman Points Scorer

    Now was that a surprise, despite all the Brexiteers claiming the deal wasn't good enough, the majority of MPs are remainers and those who thought the referendum would sort it forgot that MPs do as they want.
    MPs generally are professional politicians who were either active in uni and or took "jobs" as political assistants to party's or MPs others used the unions or old boy networks most without any experience of life who have a pay scale far in excess of their competence or knowledge, many are there just to make up numbers and have no interest except that it a fast track to wealth and fame, you or the country are the last in a list of priorities.
    Many MPs are con artists who can vote to make their scams legal the occasional one gets caught out
     
  9. Bill Boddy

    Bill Boddy Professional layabout Premium Contributor

    Minister for justice with responsibility for prisons Rory Stewart was the Government's representative on last night's "Question Time". During the debates on the EU he made it clear several times that the consultations held by Mrs May have been to attempt to find out just what change(s) MOs would accept to make her deal acceptable.

    Having had a record loss she is still insisting that she will not consider any deal but hers. I am expecting that when she comes back to the Commons on Monday that her plan B will be a repeat of plan A, she seems hell bent on time wasting until it is too late for anything else.

    Later on "This Week" Alan Johnson, a former Labour MP who declined to run for leader in 2015 when he would almost certainly have got the post, criticised Jeremy Corbyn saying that the best way of stopping a leave with no agreement is to work with the MPs to find an acceptable plan. What a pair to be relying to on the country.

    Personally I am in favour of a general election; that way Corbyn would almost certainly lose (at a time when Labour should be at least fifteen points ahead in the poll) and then hopefully resign, or be removed from, the Labour leadership so a better leader could be brought in.
     
  10. F1Brits_90

    F1Brits_90 Race Winner

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    i caught news at 10 as i was finishing work. & seemingly having 3 big votes had completely past me by. but from what I saw it seemed positive & seemed like we might finally be getting somewhere & the good thing is that it didnt just take us 2 years 7 months to get to starting line & politicians to remember they aren't children. because can you imagine if that was the case

    or is that because this has such huge disaster & that like someone F1 races. you expectations are so low that it seems a better race than it was
     
  11. sobriety

    sobriety Pole Sitter

    As I read it, the MPs have agreed to let May go back to the EU for more negotiations, but she has the same red lines.

    So the new "Deal" will be the same as the one they overwhelmingly rejected before, as nothing has changed.

    My word, this country is run by incompetents, liars, or a combination of the two.
     
  12. gethinceri

    gethinceri Daniil Kvyat Fan. Alfa Romeo Fan. Contributor

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    It's going to be shit.
     
  13. cider_and_toast

    cider_and_toast Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex Staff Member Premium Contributor

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    Best rant for a while and almost every word true. Enjoy.

     
  14. FB

    FB Not my cup of cake Valued Member

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    So the UK rejects May's withdrawal agreement so the EU asks the British parliament what it wants. The British parliament says that it doesn't want to be bound in to a deal which no longer allows the UK to leave the EU when it chooses (this is what the Irish Back stop would create) and the EU says "we are not prepared to negotiate any further". Then don't ****ing ask what we want you un-elected, undemocratic civil servants.

    Your place is not tell elected politicians what they can and can't have, your job is do what elected politicians tell you to do and the UK, which pays a significant part of you salary, is telling you we want to reopen negotiations to get to it little men.
     
  15. cider_and_toast

    cider_and_toast Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex Staff Member Premium Contributor

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    2 problems with your cunning plan Baldrick.

    One, the elected politicians in the EU have asked Tusk etc to do the dirty on their behalf.

    Two, the backstop we now don't want was apparently the one we asked for in the first place.
     
  16. FB

    FB Not my cup of cake Valued Member

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    The UK hasn't and we pay well over 10% of the EU's costs. On the backstop, I take your point although May asked for it and Parliament rejected it so we go back and start again. Not the place of un-elected technocrats to make such decisions, there job is (in part) to do as we ask as we are paying.
     
  17. RasputinLives

    RasputinLives I don't believe in Zimmerman Contributor

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    FB from what the EU has said we haven't presented then with an alternative for them to reject.
     
  18. cider_and_toast

    cider_and_toast Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex Staff Member Premium Contributor

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    And we don't get to pick who the EU puts in the room to negotiate with us. If that were the case, the EU could have had a say in who we sent and asked us to send someone completely useless like David Davis..... Oh bugger
     
  19. FB

    FB Not my cup of cake Valued Member

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    On the point of an alternative, Tresseme wants to go back and discuss the "Irish back stop" as a change on this section of the withdrawal agreement could allow it to pass through The Commons. The EU negotiators have rejected even the idea of further discussions.

    On who should negotiate, I agree the EU can appoint who it wants to negotiate on its behalf. However, those negotiators are paid to represent the wishes and demands of the EU 27 (ironically partly funded by the UK) and doesn't the power or authority to simply reject the UK position or a request for further talks simply "because they don't want to". The EU has asked the UK for what our parliament will accept, they cannot, therefore, reject an discussion before the UK has had the chance to present what it wants.

    The attitude of the EU over this whole situation should convince more people that this is why we should leave. The arrogance of these un-elected bureaucrats to try and hold the UK to ransom is simply staggering and is exactly how the whole of the rest of the EU machine works.

    There is no democracy, there is no discussion, those who run the Commission and its various departments are out of control and taking the EU to a place which could lead to conflict in Europe, the exact thing the EU was created to avoid in the first place. They are forcing an agenda on nation states which the majority of its citizens are rejecting but then the EU tells the elected governments of these countries that it cannot do what it has been elected to do. The whole house of cards is starting fall and the consequences could be dramatic.
     
    cider_and_toast likes this.
  20. cider_and_toast

    cider_and_toast Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex Staff Member Premium Contributor

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    The thing is, the EU is like a computer program. It's only running as it's been programmed to. The elected governments of Europe have created all of these institutions and appointed the staff. They've set the terms and conditions, powers and authorities.

    The whole system is working exactly as it was established to.

    Every UK Government of both colours has voted to implement the treaties to enable this. The Treaty of Rome, Maastricht, Lisbon, Amsterdam etc etc etc. They've all been rubber stamped by us.

    Maybe successive UK Governments "Didn't know what they were voting for?"
     
  21. gethinceri

    gethinceri Daniil Kvyat Fan. Alfa Romeo Fan. Contributor

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    I wish it was going to be considerably better than I suspect.
     
    sobriety likes this.

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